• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

is it legal to open carry or conceal carry a knife with double edge in virginia?

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.

While we're at it ODA, these are also perfectly legal and before you start Badger, CITE!

o Belt buckle knives;
o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
o Silencer building books;
o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
o Lock picking kits.
very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
To give some comment on the OP's question, I saw ALL KINDS of things at the gun show that, AFAIK were illegal to have.

o Brass knuckle knives (guess you could own them at home as 'collectable');
o Belt buckle knives;
o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
o Out the front switchblades;
o Auto-knives;
o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
o Saps (iron filled?);
o Sap gloves (not sure if that was what I saw, it was crowded);
o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
o Silencer building books;
o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
o Lock picking kits.


Now many of these things you could have in your house, and not carry or at least not have in your pocket, but even with police presence, vendors had these items (and more).

The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see. (I'm using truly illegal a bit sarcastically and IDK what that means, IANAL). I'm doing some guessing. I've asked vendors 'is this legal' and they all said yes, just don't carry it when you're burglarizing a house.

So you wonder where they draw the line.

I was joking with my friend, I wonder what the state police think when someone comes out with so many guns they look like that cartoon I posted. Even I was bug-eyed at what a couple female buyers had in their carts.(*)

My CHL instructor said the LEOs like for Law-abiding citizens to have firearms.


(*)(I wonder if a female with a huge arsenal walking out isn't buying for their guy friend(s).)

Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.

What does that have to do with things sold at gun shows? Are you implying that the ATF and VSP can register these items (if you buy them) over the phone/computer?

Dealers have a dealer's license and might be able to sell them, but I don't know how they'd accomplish a 'sale' at a gun show. I've seen silencers in a glass case at a Tactical store, which you prob. bring in your ATF license thingie to buy.

Most of the items you list Badger are not illegal to own, most are not illegal to carry. Your opinions expressed give the distinct impression of regularly questionable (from a legal standpoint) activity at VA gun shows.....and you do so w/o cites as to the "illegal" items - VA gun shows are IMO quite well run.

Not all items "sold" at shows are delivered that day. Other items are simply being picked up there after the process was completed prior. Vendors who display/offer such items are not doing so to circumvent the law.

Perhaps more troubling is an on going attitude that would seem to border that of an anti proponent of our rights. If you see an illegal activity, by all means report it, but do not cry "wolf" when none is in evidence. Do not suggest that someone with multiple purchases is like a cartoon character.

The overall impression given is those certain items should not be offered for sale to the general public and that any attempt to do so is wrong. Strange position for an alleged proponent of our RKBA.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
§ 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same. (Emphasis added.)
 

Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
The overall impression given is those certain items should not be offered for sale to the general public and that any attempt to do so is wrong. Strange position for an alleged proponent of our RKBA.

I think you're jumping to a conclusion. I'm just looking around and wondering. I think:

1. People that buy those things are probably just 'gear collectors'. I mean how many buy an knuckle knife and then use it except to play in their house, or fantasize?
2. I've never 'reported' any vendors or asked any LEOs 'is this legal';
3. I don't think I expressed a like or dislike of anyone owning any weapon and it's funny how a 'scary looking knife' is prohibited (like a double edged out the front switchblade or autoknife), but a big Kabar is fine, worn on the belt, or even mostly covered up. I couldn't easily kill you with a 3" OTF auto knife (unless it was a super strong spring), but you could fall down and kill yourself with a 6" Kabar.
4. There is no detector or pat down, and I see a lot of people letting their guns get tag tied, but I'm SURE people walked through with CC. Don't the organizer know that only the nice folk are bothering to let the guys at the desk struggle with their guns and put a tagtie through the barrel?
5. I'm discussing my 'WONDER' not with ANTIs, but with fellow RTBA guys, so there's no 'betrayal' of the cause. If I went to an ANTI site and posted outrage at what was being sold THEN it would be puzzling from a RTBA supporter.

IMO, the most dangerous thing in the show was the Green Laser Viridian table, where the guy had several blue guns with a green laser on them and kids were coming up and pointing them and not even knowing they'd turned them on, and people were getting shined in the face (Not sure if their laser is energetic enough to cause perm damage).
==========
So in conclusion, it looks like you're trying to find reason to paint me as a betrayer of the cause, because I don't think you're that unintelligent. I think you're wasting your time, because your comments are lame and weak, but that's just me. One can post informative commentary one can start good threads or one can be an intrusive parasite, sniping at everyone else's intelligent discourse and never posting much original. Why don't such people take up stamp collecting? It's gotta be better for one's blood pressure. If one has forum rules about having devil's advocate posts, or there's a rule about being close to breaking a rule but not ACTUALLY breaking a rule, then I haven't seen them.
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
What does that have to do with things sold at gun shows? Are you implying that the ATF and VSP can register these items (if you buy them) over the phone/computer?

Dealers have a dealer's license and might be able to sell them, but I don't know how they'd accomplish a 'sale' at a gun show. I've seen silencers in a glass case at a Tactical store, which you prob. bring in your ATF license thingie to buy.

Full auto's and suppressed weapons are found for sale at gun shows. A deposit is taken and the ATF forms are given to the prospective buyer to be filled out by the Chief LEO of his township. Of course the transaction cannot be completed that day, but only after the forms are completed and the FBI checks are made. Once possession is taken, the buyer must register the firearm or suppressor with the VSP.

You said:"The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see."

Just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean they weren't there. And BTW, Short Barrelled Shotguns are legal in Virginia too, and they are for sale at gun shows and I am a former Title III Dealer.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I think you're jumping to a conclusion. ---snip---
==========
So in conclusion, it looks like you're trying to find reason to paint me as a betrayer of the cause, because I don't think you're that unintelligent. I think you're wasting your time, because your comments are lame and weak, but that's just me. One can post informative commentary one can start good threads or one can be an intrusive parasite, sniping at everyone else's intelligent discourse and never posting much original. Why don't such people take up stamp collecting? It's gotta be better for one's blood pressure. If one has forum rules about having devil's advocate posts, or there's a rule about being close to breaking a rule but not ACTUALLY breaking a rule, then I haven't seen them.

I do not jump to conclusions about people. They are earned through their own efforts.

Highlighted/bolded thoughts demonstrate an insulting attitude and really doesn't merit further response except to say that you continue to violate forum rules to that regard.

Your posts would not be well defined as "devil's advocate posts." When a major part of what you choose to say and how you choose to express it is more frequently anti OC than positive, then the result is not the reader's decision/conclusion - the responsibility for that is yours. Just as the routine inclusion of cites is a responsibility.

It has been said before on more than one occasion: the rules on OCDO are not finite. They are subject to reasoned decision and interpretation by the Administrator and by Moderators. There is adequate provision for this within the rules.

One might ask what you expect to accomplish by your continued Quixotic tilting with moderation. Best home spun advice on this forum may well be, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging."
 

Zak Kee

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
66
Location
Hampton, Virginia
To give some comment on the OP's question, I saw ALL KINDS of things at the gun show that, AFAIK were illegal to have.
o Silencer building books;

So you wonder where they draw the line.

Where have you heard/seen a book in America illegal? I have done a lot of Google searches and have found no books legally banned or illegal in the United States and our first amendment right includes freedom of speech in the press, which according to Chief Justice Hughes, includes "every sort of publication..."

In Lovell v. City of Griffin, 303 U.S. 444 (1938), Chief Justice Hughes defined the press as, "every sort of publication which affords a vehicle of information and opinion." Freedom of the press, like freedom of speech, is subject to restrictions on bases such as defamation law. (Lovell, 452)

^^^I believe using citations like this when providing information may save you from such embarrassment when providing false information and will also enlighten you on the topic you are thinking about posting.
 
Last edited:

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Here we go again Badger..

Grapeshot made a polite but direct post about the inaccuracies in your post and the anti attitude of it.

True to your style, you began crying about discrimination. I'm sick of it!

I posted:

While we're at it ODA, these are also perfectly legal and before you start Badger, CITE!

o Belt buckle knives;
o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
o Silencer building books;
o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
o Lock picking kits.
very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see.

Now either cite or shut up!
 

celticredneck

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
168
Location
Amelia County, virginia
Maybe. If it looks like a "dirk", a short, double-edged short sword or long knife with a point designed as a stabbing weapon, then the answer is "no". Note that I didn't say it IS a dirk, but is LIKE a dirk. The concealed weapon statute prohibits dirks, bowie knives, ballistic knives, switchblades and razors and things that are "like" any of those. Open carry should be ok, but it's illegal to transfer possession of it to a minor.

Dan,Here is something I have wondered about. I attend a lot of highland games and Celtic festivals, kilted of course. I and most of the others wearing kilts often carry a sgian dubh (Scottish sock knife) in the top of the kilt hose. It is a small daggerlike knife with a blade of around 3 inches. I have passed by quite a few LEOs at the games and have never had one of them even look at the knife. Do you know if these are illegal.

Maybe they are just accepted as part of the Highland regalia. But, I have stopped on the way home to have dinner and no one has said anything there. When I get time, I'll try and post some pics of the Sgian and how it is carried.
 

Zak Kee

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
66
Location
Hampton, Virginia
Dan,Here is something I have wondered about. I attend a lot of highland games and Celtic festivals, kilted of course. I and most of the others wearing kilts often carry a sgian dubh (Scottish sock knife) in the top of the kilt hose. It is a small daggerlike knife with a blade of around 3 inches. I have passed by quite a few LEOs at the games and have never had one of them even look at the knife. Do you know if these are illegal.

Maybe they are just accepted as part of the Highland regalia. But, I have stopped on the way home to have dinner and no one has said anything there. When I get time, I'll try and post some pics of the Sgian and how it is carried.

There are many stores here in Hampton Roads that sell the sgian dubh. I carry mine in my kilt hose too and have never had anyone say anything either, but then again, during hunting season I usually carry my skinner, which might be a little bigger than 3" :)uhoh:) on my belt. FINALLY another person around here that wears a kilt! NOT to highjack this thread, but do you only wear your kilt to the highland games or wear it around town? I have never been to the highland games here in Virginia, but will be going the next ones around here. I wear my Sport Kilt any time the wife lets me!

-Zak
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Dan,Here is something I have wondered about. I attend a lot of highland games and Celtic festivals, kilted of course. I and most of the others wearing kilts often carry a sgian dubh (Scottish sock knife) in the top of the kilt hose. It is a small daggerlike knife with a blade of around 3 inches. I have passed by quite a few LEOs at the games and have never had one of them even look at the knife. Do you know if these are illegal.

Maybe they are just accepted as part of the Highland regalia. But, I have stopped on the way home to have dinner and no one has said anything there. When I get time, I'll try and post some pics of the Sgian and how it is carried.

I think, as opposed to believe, that you may be within the law.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor....
[emphasis added]

I'm not where I can do a Lexis/Nexus search for case law, so I'm putting this out there on trust and hope. But since I recall that butter knives have been "of like kind" while butterfly knives were not, I emphatically leave you on your own to decide.

stay safe.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
§ 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same. (Emphasis added.)

Just for giggles -

A Notary Public is, by statutory definition a conservator of the peace. See, for example http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

C. This section shall also not apply to any of the following individuals while in the discharge of their official duties, or while in transit to or from such duties: ...
4. Conservators of the peace, except that an attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth may carry a concealed handgun pursuant to subdivision B 9. However, the following conservators of the peace shall not be permitted to carry a concealed handgun without obtaining a permit as provided in subsection D hereof: (a) notaries public; ....

So, what's the considered opinion of the Borg? Would $35 for a NP commission get me a pass for having any of the listed trinkets?

stay safe.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
Dan,Here is something I have wondered about. I attend a lot of highland games and Celtic festivals, kilted of course. I and most of the others wearing kilts often carry a sgian dubh (Scottish sock knife) in the top of the kilt hose. It is a small daggerlike knife with a blade of around 3 inches. I have passed by quite a few LEOs at the games and have never had one of them even look at the knife. Do you know if these are illegal.

Maybe they are just accepted as part of the Highland regalia. But, I have stopped on the way home to have dinner and no one has said anything there. When I get time, I'll try and post some pics of the Sgian and how it is carried.

I thought there was a statute of Edward I making it illegal to have a blade on one of those. Hence the sort of decorative hilt that clips over the sock that is commonly worn today. If I'm right about that, then it's (as a purely technical matter) a crime in Virginia punishable as a misdemeanor. But then I'm the only person I know of who takes "historical anachronisms" like Edward I (Thirteenth Century) seriously.

But if it's not "hidden from common observation" (my own translation is, "if it's important to you and you bothered to look and couldn't see it") then the wearer could be subject to arrest under 18.2-308; all that requires is the cop thought there was probable cause, and I've seen people arrested for all sorts of things on that basis. I've been in court when people showed up who were represented by other attorneys who clearly hadn't read the statute, and who were convicted on that basis as well. If you can see the object and can tell what it is, without having to touch the person wearing it, then it's not concealed.

I don't think it's "like" a dirk (the nearest approximation in the list of prohibited items), because it's too short. The dirk was designed to penetrate the vitals and ought to be at least eight to ten inches long. Sort of like the same kind of penetration characteristics of say Hornady XTP, PMC Starpower, Federal Hydrashok, or Winchester Black Talon, and for the same reason. The thing you describe is too short for that.
 

Zak Kee

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
66
Location
Hampton, Virginia
Like this:

ekf2qe.jpg
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
I love your historical trivia Dan. Not one in a thousand people would know about that. Actually, what was banned was the pointed blade. Blunted blades were OK because the sgian dubh was/is a utility knife that among other uses, was to eat with. If memory serves me, the pointed blades were only forbidden at certain social gatherings anyway.


It is a lot different from the Dirk that developed from the Balcock Dagger and was a weapon with few other uses.

A little more on the blade. Very few looked like the picture shown. All of them I've had a chance to handle and duplicate were Circa Revolutionary War and none were dagger shaped. They were for the most part, spear pointed which was common because it was a simple design for blacksmiths to make. The triangular blades had a straight spine and a tapered edge, again a simple blade to make.

These were working knives.
 
Last edited:

zoom6zoom

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2006
Messages
1,694
Location
Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
Top