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how do self defense shootings get handled in virginia?

SouthernBoy

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May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Sorry, but the OP is responsible for providing us with all the variables that exist in their scenario. The OP has done that for us, giving us you draw your pistol and fire to stop further attack. (That last one is not a variable. It is the action opencarrypalmtrees took after analyzing the twelve, count them, twelve variables in his scenario.)

Twelve, count them, twelve specific variables. They form what the attorneys out there like to call "the four corners" of the situation - it's what we have and all that we have. If we change any of the variables we have a new scenario and therefore a new set of responses.

I know you, SouthernBoy, are trying to get at this notion of "four corners" and how everything changes if even one variable changes, but in keeping with being one of the resident pedants it actually IS my job to point out that all we can work with are the twelve, count them, twelve variables opencarrypalmtrees has provided us with. We do him a disservice if we attempt to change his scenario out from underneath him, as well as run the very high risk of confusing him.

But more than anything, what we seem to have before us is someone with a history of posting "What If" scenarios and then telling us the following BS: Why do I call BS ? Because opencarrypalmtrees says that the scenarios he posts "need an expert opinion" but comes here asking us non-experts for our opinions.(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert for a basic explanation of what an "expert" is, and pay special attention to [emphasis added] At best we have knowledge beyond that of the average person, due mostly to experience, but that's where we end (unless and until one of the attorneys shows up and tells us they are gving us their considered professional opinion - and I've yet to see any of them do that!).

In closing, let me say "Thank You" to opencarrypalmtrees for exposing himself so clearly for what he is so early in his stay here.

stay safe.

I understand and appreciate your post here. I do not know the gent's history on the site and was just trying to point out to folks that scenarios, while very good tools to use to try to envision situations and what we might want or need to do, are raft with missing variables. I'm sure we all know that no two situations are going to be the same. For example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and while I can get around and am mobile, I can no longer run or fight as I was once capable of doing. This creates a "variable" in the OP's scenario that would likely not be present by a much younger man.

But I do understand what you are saying in your above quoted post so I'll just sit back and listen for a bit.
 

MSC 45ACP

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Apr 23, 2009
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2,840
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Newport News, Virginia, USA
The problem with these "what if I get punched" threads is that there are a lot of exceptions that could apply. MSC 45 ACP, who is probably tough as nails but like the rest of us, not 20 anymore, probably gave the best exception possible....but I've seen this topic get younger, between 20 and 30 years old try the same argument. Carrying a gun requires a higher "Walk Away" dedication.

PeterNap?

You've obviously mistaken me for someone else! While I appreciate the compliment, I am quite far from "tough as nails" anymore. I MIGHT have agreed with you until around 2004 when my body quit cashing the checks written by my mind. I currently have 3 cysts and a tumor in my spinal cord. I've also managed to acquire bone cancer somewhat recently. I'm 46 years old and get very dirty looks from people twice my age when I park in a disabled parking spot. They turn somewhat sheepish when they see me trying to get out of my car and walk on a "bad day" (when pain meds no longer work).

I'm fairly certain I would be acquitted under most circumstances. Most likely wouldn't even be arrested unless there were "more questions than answers" in the incident. Of course I wouldn't be the one answering those questions. That would be my attorney.
 

Grapeshot

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Tactics may change with age and disabilities, they can be used to advantage, but nothing will beat the leathered quality of a saltwater tanned hide. You stand tall brother Mike.
 

Grapeshot

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You are too kind, Brother Grapeshot. What have I done to merit such praise?

Humility, consistency, honesty, dedication, willingness to fight the good fight and most of all teaching by example. Too few such men IMHO.
 

ODA 226

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Feb 26, 2008
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Etzenricht, Germany
No need for me to draw my pistol for this. I'd cross-arm grab him by the lower waist, drive my shoulder into him, flip him upside-down, lift him up as high as I could and pile-drive his face into the floor. Problem solved.

Oh and BTW, it wouldn't be the first time that I've done that to someone who desparately needed it, and you don't want to know about the last guy I hit with a suplex...
 
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user

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Northern Piedmont
how do self defense shootings get handled in virginia? ...

Badly, generally speaking.

You know any "free lawyers"? How about a "free car mechanic", I've got a Saturn that needs diagnosis. Court appointed lawyers are cheap, but not free - their fee gets added to your court costs when they lose the case for you. (That's not fair, some folks do that out of the goodness of their hearts, and not just because they're hard up for work. But it's a crap-shoot which lawyer you get off the list.)

I generally do a free initial consultation, and always do for VCDL members. But for the scenario you posed, you'll be in Circuit Court and yes, that's going to be expensive, particularly if you want to win. Half a million dollars seems excessive to me, but twenty thousand is not out of the ball park. Most of the stuff I do in Circuit runs between six and twelve thousand. It's a lot of work. Of course you are entitled to represent yourself...

That said, here's the basic rule of self-defense (quoting myself):
If you have a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you may use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to protect yourself from the threat.
 
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xd shooter

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Oct 31, 2010
Messages
333
Location
usa
I see that you all seem to quote the "2 hits", as if that's where the beating stops. I surmise that it took the 2 hits for the OP to realize that he WAS in danger of "great bodily harm" as pointed out by user. If, in the OP's scenario, he had NOT pulled his gun and shot the offender, the beating would have continued to it's conclusion of serious bodily injury.

I'm sorry guys, there may be history with the OP, but I'm seeing a lot of closed minds here, and it disturbs me.

Point blank question that I asked previously but wasn't answered, Are you saying that in NO case is being beat upon a good cause for pulling your gun and shooting back? That this WILL be cause for you going to jail?

Even User quotes
If you have a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you may use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to protect yourself from the threat.

Being beaten up by someone would fall under serious bodily injury as far as I'm concerned, even if I only sustained minor injuries causing missed work, medical bills, etc, causing more issues in my life that I really don't need right now.

There's always someone bigger, faster, stronger than you. I carry to defend myself, from someone with a gun or someone intent on doing me harm with fists, bats, pipes, ropes, whatever. I won't instigate it, but I damn sure will finish it!

The OP may have posed a terrible scenario, a "what if", but I'm asking for clarification on your responses, the "You WILL go to jail" answer. If this is truly the case in VA, I guess I should not visit there.
 
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opencarrypalmtrees

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Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
59
Location
pumpkinville
this isn't very nice

i came to ask questions and learn and some of you are just mean. shame on you for being a cyber bully for noob questions.

:eek:

thank you to all of those helping to put information out there to help people learn the laws of self defense here in virginia.

As a sidenote, its nice to know that it will only cost roughly 6 to 12,000 if you have to go to the circuit court. Even $20,000 doesn't seem like it would break the bank if you have a middle class wage I suppose. So self defense shooting can be affordable legally : ) Of course, waiting in jail for your trial and missing work may screw up your monthly bills but you may be able to post bail depending on the judge i hear.
 
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Grapeshot

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---snip---

The OP may have posed a terrible scenario, a "what if", but I'm asking for clarification on your responses, the "You WILL go to jail" answer. If this is truly the case in VA, I guess I should not visit there.

Always up to the discretion of the legal system. Do everything right and it's still a crap shoot. IMHO - the system here in VA works better (most of the time) than in a lot of other states.
 

user

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...The OP may have posed a terrible scenario, a "what if", but I'm asking for clarification on your responses, the "You WILL go to jail" answer. If this is truly the case in VA, I guess I should not visit there.

There is no "you WILL go to jail" answer in any of the states. But as you're from USA, from which I infer you mean the D. of C., Guam, the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, or some other place within the territory of the United States, I suggest you're in an even more tenuous position where you are. Ultimately the question whether the perception of disparate force constitutes a basis for a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, or a threat of serious bodily injury, is a fact question. That means it's going to take a jury to figure it out and make a determination. A dozen just-plain-folks will decide those questions on a case-by-case basis, and every case is different, every jury is different. No firm answer there. Just do as well as you can and hope for the best. But if your motivation isn't purely defensive; if you're angry, resentful, and want retribution and revenge, you're probably going to lose at trial. Juries generally are very good crap-detectors.
 
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user

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...As a sidenote, its nice to know that it will only cost roughly 6 to 12,000 if you have to go to the circuit court. Even $20,000 doesn't seem like it would break the bank if you have a middle class wage I suppose. So self defense shooting can be affordable legally : ) Of course, waiting in jail for your trial and missing work may screw up your monthly bills but you may be able to post bail depending on the judge i hear.

There are possibilities of financial assistance in such cases. Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network and United States Concealed Carry Association both offer programs whereby members' defense costs can be subsidized. I'm a participating attorney in both organizations.
 
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user

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Always up to the discretion of the legal system. Do everything right and it's still a crap shoot. IMHO - the system here in VA works better (most of the time) than in a lot of other states.

Agree completely. Grapeshot is a wise man.
 

Badger Johnson

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Jan 12, 2011
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USA
I'd just hit him back. Keep in mind you asked what would we do not what we think you should do, so that's my answer. Ask those here who have met me in person, I'm not a small guy, and where I grew up we learned to fight back with our fists. I've been attacked in the street by 3 men at once and I wasn't the one who ended up in hospital.

So your analysis is:
1. First, be a very large man who is used to fight with fists and has defeated three men at once;
2. Punch back.

How about:
1. First be Chuck Norris;
2. By any way he wants to win.
----------
I make a little joke because big men with big fists are the last person a predator attacks, typically. What if the person in the scenario is a small adult, 5'0, and is armed but the perp is NOT armed and just smacks them a couple times? It's disparity of force, but the force is open hand smacks? (There are people that can kill you with an open handed slap.)

What jury is going to call disparity of force due to bitch slapping, and a firing solution? (just musing)

So, I'd suggest that letting someone hit you, hitting them back, all that is stupid. Once you swing it's a 'instigation' situation, his word against hers/yours.

Seek solutions much earlier in the 'conflict'. Just like a choke defense in BJJ - don't let the opponent get hooks in and full choke on before you start your defense.
 

Jonesy

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Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
I seem to recall that blows to the head can be considered lethal force in Virginia and MAY be sufficient to allow use of deadly force in self defense in Virginia. While shooting an unarmed individual and then claiming self defense in Virginia will obviously present a more difficult defense if charged, it seems to me under the right circumstances use of such force could be justified. The problem, as Grapeshot and User so eloquently points out, is that a jury will decide after the fact whether such force was justified. But as many of us are aware, a certain Virginian shot an unarmed individual in Philly in self defense, and he was aquitted. Admittedly, those facts presented a stronger case of self defense as the defendant was backing away, and being pursued by numerous indivuals.

I think the best advice that can be taken from this thread is to try and avoid using your weapon unless you are really in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. Getting charged with serious felonies will really mess up your life, think about less extreme measures before shooting someone. Like maybe you can run off, call the cops, etc. The tough guy advice to body slam the guy seems to be not too helpful, as many people are not capable of such, we are not all Chuck Norris. But read up on Virginia case law, it will help, you really cannot contribute to escalating the situation at all.
 
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Fenris

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I am not an expert nor an attorney. I'm just a very fat, middle-aged, man with a bad back (2 surgeries) and bad knees who carries a gun. I can and would try to walk away, but running or fighting are out of the question.

I'm a pessimist. So I start with the assumption that following a self-defense shooting, I'm probably going to get screwed by the legal system and the world in general. So the only time I would use the gun is if I generally believe that the alternative is worse than getting screwed by the legal system (see above.) For me that is avoiding the death or serious injury of myself or my family.

Are two blows enough to reach that point for me? I don't know. I guess it depends on the blows. It doesn't sound serious in some sense, but a blow to the head can knock you out or cause brain injuries. And while beatings with hands and feet are not always fatal, they certainly can be (particularly feet). So how much of a beating does one have to take before responding? Legally? Who knows? As has been pointed out by others, it is a crap shoot.

Here in a safe, quiet house, it would seem to me that if I'm worrying about the law, then the time to shoot hasn't arrived. When I'm thinking, "Oh ****, he's going to kill me" then the time has arrived. But I would hope the law doesn't require that you wait until you're already dead or seriously injured before responding with deadly force. Otherwise the right of self defense doesn't mean very much.

At least this is what I think at 3am, sitting at my kitchen table. I reserve the right to re-think when I'm more awake.
 

Badger Johnson

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Musings...

If I have a car with a steel frame body and airbags and a seat belt, does that keep me from getting in accidents? No.
Do these features save my life if I'm in a road rage incident? nope
Do they save me if they are a 'last resort' - yeah pretty much their use is 'final straw'.

Likewise a firearm. It doesn't keep me out of confrontations, it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't prevent road rage (except that it makes us really polite).

If a situation is suddenly gravest extreme and you can deploy and put that front sight on target it can save you (even if you stop before pulling the trigger - the BG turns and runs away). That's all.

If I could afford it, I might hire a bodyguard who is a trained professional, and just carry a BUG in case the BG is taken out. I want the option of carrying, but I really don't want to be responsible if I can help it. However, even a bodyguard might not shoot someone who is going to shoot your spouse - whereas you would.

The point is when there is a highly chaotic situation all bets are off. It's a narrow path that allows you to use lethal means to self-defend and even then if no witnesses or video, you could still go to jail.

$.02
 
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