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Thread: Interesting encounter with LEO

  1. #1
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    Interesting encounter with LEO

    I was going outside to help my fiancee get my daughter out of the car and get her shopping bags, first thing I notice is my little brother had just pulled in my driveway with a RPD behind him for expired registration. The office saw my glock 17 before I had a chance to say anything. He was very courteous and polite and had no problems what so ever. We did get into talking about open carry and then of course he went about the whole going armed to the terror of the public if someone called about my handgun. I did not argue with him since he was not going to ticket my brother and he left on good terms with me. However I did follow up by sending a e-mail to the raliegh police dept. concerning his stance on GATToP and how carrying a properly holstered handgun does not constitute being charged with this offense. I just wanted to hopefully educate some LEO's who do not understand the law and make future encounters between LEO and LAC a little more positve.
    here is my email


    Yesterday an officer pulled my younger brother over for expired registration outside in my driveway. I did not know he was outside but my fiancee and daughter had just gotten home I helped them bring there bags in, I was open carrying my glock 17 to which I made mention to the officer while he was conducting the traffic stop. He had no problem with it and knew I was within my legal right. We did have a discussion about open carry to some extent, he did inform me that I could be charged with going armed to the terror of the public if someone called and said there was a man with a gun.

    I am not sending this email to complain about the officer or his conduct, he was very respectful and courteous during our encounter. I am just wanting to make sure that the police force knows that carrying a properly holstered handgun in a peaceful manner does not constitute a going armed to the terror of the public charge. It is important to keep the relationship between sworn officers of the law and armed citizens such as myself, healthy, and respectful. I want to make sure they know the law as well as I do so I am not arrested one day for excersising my right to carry a firearm for my personal protection. Again I thank everyone in our police department for there hard work and dedication and hope this issue can be resolved so open carriers and police officers can have positive interactions should the day comes when someone calls about a man with a holstered gun.

    thanks very much

  2. #2
    Regular Member ArmySoldier22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashowdy View Post
    I was going outside to help my fiancee get my daughter out of the car and get her shopping bags, first thing I notice is my little brother had just pulled in my driveway with a RPD behind him for expired registration. The office saw my glock 17 before I had a chance to say anything. He was very courteous and polite and had no problems what so ever. We did get into talking about open carry and then of course he went about the whole going armed to the terror of the public if someone called about my handgun. I did not argue with him since he was not going to ticket my brother and he left on good terms with me. However I did follow up by sending a e-mail to the raliegh police dept. concerning his stance on GATToP and how carrying a properly holstered handgun does not constitute being charged with this offense. I just wanted to hopefully educate some LEO's who do not understand the law and make future encounters between LEO and LAC a little more positve.
    here is my email


    Yesterday an officer pulled my younger brother over for expired registration outside in my driveway. I did not know he was outside but my fiancee and daughter had just gotten home I helped them bring there bags in, I was open carrying my glock 17 to which I made mention to the officer while he was conducting the traffic stop. He had no problem with it and knew I was within my legal right. We did have a discussion about open carry to some extent, he did inform me that I could be charged with going armed to the terror of the public if someone called and said there was a man with a gun.

    I am not sending this email to complain about the officer or his conduct, he was very respectful and courteous during our encounter. I am just wanting to make sure that the police force knows that carrying a properly holstered handgun in a peaceful manner does not constitute a going armed to the terror of the public charge. It is important to keep the relationship between sworn officers of the law and armed citizens such as myself, healthy, and respectful. I want to make sure they know the law as well as I do so I am not arrested one day for excersising my right to carry a firearm for my personal protection. Again I thank everyone in our police department for there hard work and dedication and hope this issue can be resolved so open carriers and police officers can have positive interactions should the day comes when someone calls about a man with a holstered gun.

    thanks very much

    I'm sure you'll hear from Dreamer and all those guys about it too, but from what I can see, it's a very well done email and gets the point across in a respectful manner. I'm just glad to see someone actually contact the department about it.


    David

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    the best part is when he said " well it invites trouble" my reply "Why dont you guys conceal then" he got a chuckle out of that one.

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    Good on you for the follow up! Let us know what response you get.

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    here here...

    well said & look forward to their response...

    wabbit

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    We're starting to see more and more of this "if someone calls us we have to arrest you for GATTTOTP" crap. Makes me wonder if some sort of memo went out through the wires to each LE department across the state recently or something.

    Would any of our LEOs on board want to clarify if that's the case?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySoldier22 View Post
    I'm sure you'll hear from Dreamer and all those guys about it too, but from what I can see, it's a very well done email and gets the point across in a respectful manner. I'm just glad to see someone actually contact the department about it.

    Why does everyone point at me whenever GAttTotP comes up?

    IANAL, I just enjoy making judges and attorneys squirm when I can "pro se" circles around them...

    However, I will chime in on this one. You guys know that I just can't help myself...

    "Dashowdy", that was a pretty good email you sent to your local Police Chief. The only thing I could recommend to improve it would have been if you included references to Case Law (Huntley vs. State of NC) and perhaps would have actually quoted the GAttTotP definition provided in the NC AG's "NC Firearms Law" booklet. The AG's definition (based on the "Huntley" decision) very CLEARLY delineates that:

    1) GAttTotP is a "crime of intent", meaning to be guilty of it, you have to have the EXPRESSED INTENT of terrorizing people, and

    2) there are 4 "prongs" to this violation, and a person must meet ALL FOUR to be guilty of GAttTotP. If you were standing on your own private property (or ANY private property, for that matter) you CANNOT be guilty of GAttTotP. You could be charged with assault if you waved your handgun at someone on private property, but just walking around in a private property parking lot, or in your own driveway with a lawfully-possessed handgun in a proper holster does NOT qualify for GAttTotP.

    EVERYONE in NC who carries needs to download this PDF about OC, and GAttTotP, and read it, and MEMORIZE it. It is written by a LAW FIRM that provides council to a major NC police department, and unlike LEOs, lawyers actually have to KNOW the law, and not just make stuff up:

    http://www.policehelp.net/pubs/2009/qv8n11.pdf

    I would also suggest that "Dashowdy" prints off a copy of this PDF and hand-deliver a copy of it to the Chief of the LEA that is giving him this bad information...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-02-2012 at 10:47 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member ArmySoldier22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Why does everyone point at me whenever GAttTotP comes up?
    \/ That's why =p \/
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    However, I will chime in on this one. You guys know that I just can't help myself...

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySoldier22 View Post
    \/ That's why =p \/
    LOL...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Refer them to State v Huntley any chance you get too. It's pretty much where the idea that lawful OC is not GATTTOTP comes from.

    http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html

    Good email too.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    If people could see little 'info bubbles' over a person (like 'popup videos'), then

    Over a LEO the popup MIGHT say:
    o % of DV cases - a bunch
    o % of ND cases - a bunch (LEOs are not typically gun nuts, just carry b/c the job requires)
    o % of wrongful death cases - kind of high but then LEOs go into danger
    o degree of testosterone poisoning - very high
    o Steroid use - high
    o No constitutional duty to protect any individual

    and over a CHL (and OC somewhat of a subset) the popup MIGHT say
    o % of DV cases - zero
    o % of ND cases - a few (many CHL are gun fans, go to range, practice)
    o % of felony convictions - zero (or nearly, some permits don't get pulled)
    o % of wrongful death cases - not very high
    o degree of testosterone poisoning - very low
    o Steroid use - low or none.
    o Might have an urge to protect you

    If they could see the real 'stats', would they change their attitudes and fear the LEO or the CHL? IDK. We're trained to have an odd respect for authority, which belies the real story.

    With a LEO HG packing is expected. With a CHL or OC-er it's unexpected.

    People are just not logical when it comes to carrying firearms.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Campaign Veteran G22shooter's Avatar
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    Dashowdy -- good for you on how you handled this, during and afterwards.

    Good on Dreamer and chiefjason for their tips on how we can all work to protect our legal rights.

    Big thumbs up, guys!
    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. O'Rourke; The Liberty Manifesto
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

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    And there it goes again.... gattop being brought up just for merely carrying a properly holstered firearm by some leo who has no idea of the specific required for gattop. Are you guys sure NC is an open carry state??? Just kidding, but someone reading these post would sure think otherwise....

    Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    If they could see the real 'stats', would they change their attitudes and fear the LEO or the CHL? IDK. We're trained to have an odd respect for authority, which belies the real story.

    I've been collecting data on JUST this sort of thing for 2 years, specific to Maryland LEOs, and I plan on entering it into the Public Record in the General Assembly sometime this spring as part of the Public Comment Testimony on one of the upcoming Concealed Carry Bills...

    For instance, of ALL the people in MD who are either issued unrestricted CC permits or are otherwise authorised to carry unrestricted (LEOs and court officers), in the last decade EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of murder, homicide, or aggravated assault has been by a cop or officer of the Courts. Not a SINGLE "civilian" has had their permit revoked in MD in the last decade because they committed a violent crime.

    What MD needs is NOT more "gun control". What MD needs is a LOT more "cop control", because the LEAs are obviously spinning out of control with regards to civil rights violations, abuse of citizens, and unconstitutional procedures.

    I fully expect to be physically thrown out of the MD GA this year when I testify, and I'll probably get pulled over and harassed when I drive home. Hopefully there will be witnesses with their own cameras recording it all.

    The gloves are coming off this time, and DATA is my weapon, designed to vaporize the lies, fictions, and fabrications perpetrated by the MSP over the last three years in the MD GA.

    Truth will out... Bitches...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I've been collecting data on JUST this sort of thing for 2 years, specific to Maryland LEOs, and I plan on entering it into the Public Record in the General Assembly sometime this spring as part of the Public Comment Testimony on one of the upcoming Concealed Carry Bills...

    For instance, of ALL the people in MD who are either issued unrestricted CC permits or are otherwise authorised to carry unrestricted (LEOs and court officers), in the last decade EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of murder, homicide, or aggravated assault has been by a cop or officer of the Courts. Not a SINGLE "civilian" has had their permit revoked in MD in the last decade because they committed a violent crime.

    What MD needs is NOT more "gun control". What MD needs is a LOT more "cop control", because the LEAs are obviously spinning out of control with regards to civil rights violations, abuse of citizens, and unconstitutional procedures.

    I fully expect to be physically thrown out of the MD GA this year when I testify, and I'll probably get pulled over and harassed when I drive home. Hopefully there will be witnesses with their own cameras recording it all.

    The gloves are coming off this time, and DATA is my weapon, designed to vaporize the lies, fictions, and fabrications perpetrated by the MSP over the last three years in the MD GA.

    Truth will out... Bitches...
    Werd.

    Fight the power.....fight the power that be!

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    What I've always admired in Dreamer's posts is his low-key, laid back, can't-we-all-just-get-along attitude.

    I would love to be there.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    What I've always admired in Dreamer's posts is his low-key, laid back, can't-we-all-just-get-along attitude.

    LOL...

    Your sense of understatement is admirable, and greatly appreciated...

    Don't get me wrong...

    I'll be wearing a suit (with my US Flag and Eagle Scout pins on the lapel), and I'll have my best demeanor in order. I will be calm, polite, factual, and orderly.

    But I'm not *****-footing around anymore. The last two years (last year, written testimony submitted, two years ago, in person) I pretty much "toed the party line" and played hard on the "protecting my family" and "I carry because I am responsible for my own safety" cards.

    But after hearing the outright lies from the MSP for three years in a row, I'm sick of it, and I'm launching a pre-emptive info-strike on their truck-load of O'Malley-Arse-Kissing Disinformation.

    I'll start off by reading a list of the names and violations of every Maryland LEO who has been arrested for committing violent, drug-related, or corruption-related crimes in the last two years. Then I'll ask the Reps if they think THESE people are trustworthy enough to judge who may or may not carry in MD, let alone be allowed to carry themselves?

    Then I'll play a few video clips of the MSP testimony from last year that were blatant lies, and prove them wrong with references to State Statute from other states, news reports, and official DOJ and FBI reports. Then I'll again ask the Reps why they think that an organization that has been proven to be serial liars ON THE RECORD can be trusted to decide who may and may not exercise the Human Right to Self Defense?

    Then I'm going to name the well-known anti-gun State Senators, Reps, and MD's Federal Reps and Senators who now have or have had in the past, MD carry permits. And I'll pose the question why should people who are proven hypocrites, elitists, and liars should be entrusted with the authority to determine how law-abiding citizens may exercise the FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT to self-defense.

    And if I haven't been tazed, beaten and given the bum's rush by then, I plan to ask our esteemed Legislators why they think that THEIR lives are more valuable than mine, or that of my family. And I'll further ask the MSP spokespeople in attendance if they intend on telling the same lies this year or if they've prepared a whole NEW batch of lies with which to sully the public record.

    The gloves are coming off this year...


    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    I would love to be there.
    Well, you can be, virtually if they do things the same as last year. Last year, I could not attend, and Rep Smigiel sent me a link to the General Assembly's live streaming feed, so I could watch the while thing live. I TREMENDOUSLY enjoyed the citizen testimony (like I did when I was in attendance in 2010) but about half-way through the MSP "testimony", I was screaming "BS" so loud and so often (in my living room) that I missed about 25% of what he was saying...

    Luckily, I got a DVD of the testimony from 2010, and I'm ordering one from 2011, so I can compile the MSP clips for my presentation...

    If they live-stream it this year, I'll be sure to post a link here on OCDO so people can "follow the bouncing ball" real-time, or download it later and watch it as an AVI at their convenience...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-03-2012 at 07:10 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    You go, Dreamer!

    Looking forward to the video...

    I've had a few encounters w/ MSP and Baltimore PD - none of which could be construed as "citizen respectful".

    I'm sure happy to be in NC, although there's much to be fixed here too.

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    Still have not got a reply yet but it is only tuesday, will give them until friday. I made sure to send him that pdf and site the case law. Had a chance to talk to a senior rpd officer about open carry today. He has been on the force for at least twenty years. I asked him about GATToP and what he thought.This was at my locksmiths and he was OC'ing in his shop while we were talking. He basically said it was a gray area and that he does agree that carrying a handgun does not constitute an offense but not all LEO's see it that way. I just told him that I had sent a letter to the chief regarding the need to educate the officers as to the conditions that need to be met to be charged with this common law crime. It was a good talk we talked more about guns than open carrying but he did not seem at all against it. So hopefully a chance to educate a senior officer worked and he will talk to his good buddies and let them know we are law abiding citizens who are protecting ourselves to make the police's job a little easier.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    If they live-stream it this year, I'll be sure to post a link here on OCDO so people can "follow the bouncing ball" real-time, or download it later and watch it as an AVI at their convenience...
    Thanks, Dreamer. We'll be looking for it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I only check in over here every now and then, so if someone could crosspost this to NCGO when the time rolls around, I would be greatly appreciative.

    Thanks.
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    Campaign Veteran G22shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    I only check in over here every now and then, so if someone could crosspost this to NCGO when the time rolls around, I would be greatly appreciative.

    Thanks.
    But, sultan62, you are a member over at ncgo, aren't you? ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. O'Rourke; The Liberty Manifesto
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G22shooter View Post
    But, sultan62, you are a member over at ncgo, aren't you? ;-)
    Yes. I'd like to see/hear the proceedings when Dreamer is up, and I probably won't see it here. A PM would serve as well, I'm just unlikely to see it unless it's posted over there.
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

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