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Thread: St. Joseph PD Emails....

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    St. Joseph PD Emails....

    ​Was visiting their website and just for giggles I decided to email them on thier policy of open carry. Here is what I wrote to them.....

    I'm aware of the legality of private citizens being able to open carry firearms here in St. Joe, but was curious of the way the department would handle a call received from another citizen that may be concerned by a holstered handgun carried in plain sight.
    I wasn't sure if the dispatchers would inform the caller of the legality of it or not, or if an officer would be required to respond. If an officer was in fact required to respond, what is the procedure they are to follow if and when they contact the person carrying?

    I have a lot of respect for law enforcement, and I just want to maintain a good relationship with officers. I've been a victim of violent crime and I choose to carry a handgun for self defense, and I believe that openly carrying one has a deterrence factor from criminals, and keeping my family safe is very important to me.

    Thank you for your prompt response and taking the time to answer my questions.

    Here is their response...coulda called this one lol.

    If we receive a complaint from a citizen that they have observed someone carrying openly we would probably dispatch officers to investigate.
    Regardless of the law it still upsets and or intimidates people when they observe someone openly carrying any type of firearm.
    If you have a conceal carry permit I would recommend keeping it concealed. They are several reasons for this. If you have a conceal carry permit Iím sure they explained this in the training.
    One of the reasons for keeping your firearm concealed is safety. I would not want someone coming up from behind me & attempt to disarm me.
    There are a lot of articles on the internet about conceal carry & reasons to keep you weapon concealed. Sounds like maybe you had an incident? If so I recommend you contact our professional standards officer at 816-271-4780.

    This response was emailed to me from....
    Captain Steve Powell
    St. Joseph, Mo. P.D. Detective Division 501 Faraon St. St. Joseph, Mo. 64501
    Office (816)271-5310
    Fax (816)271-5347
    spowell@ci.st-joseph.mo.us
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    I think that not a bad email. Might not support are views. While he did favor CCW, he didnt seem to make a personal agenda to attack the OC view in a harrassing manner. And the threat of being disarmed is a valid point that you have to be aware of when OC. I truely believe neither way is the "right" way. So if thats his reasoning for CCW, good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goalseter88 View Post
    I think that not a bad email. Might not support are views. While he did favor CCW, he didnt seem to make a personal agenda to attack the OC view in a harrassing manner. And the threat of being disarmed is a valid point that you have to be aware of when OC. I truely believe neither way is the "right" way. So if thats his reasoning for CCW, good.
    Agreed.

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    He was very polite about his opinions, and I liked the fact that he did seem concerned I may have had an incident with one of his officers and told me the way to go about making a complaint if I did. The "beat" officers here in Joetown can be dbags at times, so at least I have these emails in my inventory in case I am stopped. It backs up the fact that OC is in fact legal here in city limits. That was the main thing I was going for.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    On one hand I agree that the response is reasonable, polite and professional. However, the snarky side of me wants to reply with, "Excellent points, Sir. So when is the PD going to begin implementing a concealed carry only policy for all of its uniformed officers?"

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
    ​[snip]

    If we receive a complaint from a citizen that they have observed someone carrying openly we would probably dispatch officers to investigate.
    Regardless of the law it still upsets and or intimidates people when they observe someone openly carrying any type of firearm.
    If you have a conceal carry permit I would recommend keeping it concealed. They are several reasons for this. If you have a conceal carry permit Iím sure they explained this in the training.
    One of the reasons for keeping your firearm concealed is safety. I would not want someone coming up from behind me & attempt to disarm me.
    There are a lot of articles on the internet about conceal carry & reasons to keep you weapon concealed. Sounds like maybe you had an incident? If so I recommend you contact our professional standards officer at 816-271-4780.

    This response was emailed to me from....
    Captain Steve Powell
    St. Joseph, Mo. P.D. Detective Division 501 Faraon St. St. Joseph, Mo. 64501
    Office (816)271-5310
    Fax (816)271-5347
    spowell@ci.st-joseph.mo.us

    The Captain was polite, however, it is quite evident he let's his personal opinion about OC be carried out regardless of the law. The above bold indicated reading the rest of his email was a waist of time. This comment substantiates the stories I've heard from that area.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    My usual hypercritical comment:

    1. He didn't answer your question;
    2. He didn't describe his POLICY;
    3. He used the phrase 'Regardless of the Law';
    4. He suggested YOU had a problem (deflected);

    I'll stop there. I don't see he was asking if you had a problem with one of his guys and wanted so make a complaint AT ALL. (or he would have given you the URL to citizen complaints).

    So, here's a Captain of the Executive branch of the gbmt (enforcement?) who is being Judge (interpreting the law). If I was the mayor and I hired this guy (IOW not a Sheriff who is voted in), I would fire him. No choice in the matter (unless he was just talking). You do not want the Executive branch subordinating the other two branches (Executive, Legislative, Judicial). You just can't have it.

    He should get their legal guy to tell you the policy and the policy should conform with the State law. I mean it's great he 'chatted you up' so you know how he really feels... ;-/
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    I'm disappointed he fed you the typical "it scares people" line of reasoning. Lame.

    And like Badger pointed out, he didn't answer your question fully (beyond the "probably").

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    If I see a young person driving a car, I call the police department and ask them to investigate because they MIGHT be too young.

    Seems that this is about the same type of mentality, EXCEPT inexperienced drivers in cars kill FAR MORE people than illegal guns.

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Yeah, I saw how he dodged my question about how officers were supposed to handle the call. It was an email full of opinions, but I do now have the legality for my records.
    I would write back but can't think of anything to say without sounding like a smartass. Ill just leave it at that and if I'm ever stopped here in town, at least I have something, even though not much, to fall back on of anything happens.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Should invite him for a meet and greet of some of the county citizens who OC. Ask him to please bring along several examples of how OC'ers have been preemptively targeted or disarmed and killed with their own weapons. Maybe one of the citizens might prep up a summary of police officers disarmed and shot with their own weapons as an additional example?
    Last edited by ecocks; 01-04-2012 at 08:44 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just me getting older and having to deal with customers with whom I have to be rather judicious in my verbiage, but I still find his letter rather even tempered and carefully couched.
    1) He says they would probably dispatch an officer to investigate. Well, I would take that at face value for two reasons a) for liability reasons - if they don't send someone to at least do a driveby to check it out and the person is a mass murderer there would be hell to pay and b) the type of citizen who is going to call in on OC is probably someone who...
    2) Gets alarmed at seeing OC. Yep, leads into his next point. Some people do get scared/intimidated by OC. Just reality. And OC in that area is probably rare enough to be somewhat unusual. We don't have to like it, but I would expect that it is an accurate statement.
    3) He recommends CC. His use of the word "recommend" is more nuanced than writing "should" or some other more foreceful language. Clearly it is an opinion, but it is not demanding as we have seen from so many other LEOs to citizens in similar exchanges.
    4) He recommends it primarily because of retention. Well yeah, 90%of people walk around in Code White and "never see it coming". Those of us on OCDO are the exceptions, not the rules. We care enough to talk about this stuff, think about it, train, consider strategy, etc. And every one of us, if we are being honest, has had a moment of distraction where we were lucky we didn't have a violent felon standing behind us going after our sidearm. And he doesn't know if the writer is an OCDO member who thinks about this stuff or some kid who saw some news report about OC and thinks it would be cool to OC.
    5) He wonders if the writer had some encounter with LEO that led to his inquiry. Not an unreasonable possibility and just in case he offers contact information to file a complaint.

    Certainly it is not a pro-OC letter, however, it is far more balanced than most we have read around here over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Maybe it's just me getting older and having to deal with customers with whom I have to be rather judicious in my verbiage, but I still find his letter rather even tempered and carefully couched.
    1) He says they would probably dispatch an officer to investigate. Well, I would take that at face value for two reasons a) for liability reasons - if they don't send someone to at least do a driveby to check it out and the person is a mass murderer there would be hell to pay and b) the type of citizen who is going to call in on OC is probably someone who...
    2) Gets alarmed at seeing OC. Yep, leads into his next point. Some people do get scared/intimidated by OC. Just reality. And OC in that area is probably rare enough to be somewhat unusual. We don't have to like it, but I would expect that it is an accurate statement.
    3) He recommends CC. His use of the word "recommend" is more nuanced than writing "should" or some other more foreceful language. Clearly it is an opinion, but it is not demanding as we have seen from so many other LEOs to citizens in similar exchanges.
    4) He recommends it primarily because of retention. Well yeah, 90%of people walk around in Code White and "never see it coming". Those of us on OCDO are the exceptions, not the rules. We care enough to talk about this stuff, think about it, train, consider strategy, etc. And every one of us, if we are being honest, has had a moment of distraction where we were lucky we didn't have a violent felon standing behind us going after our sidearm. And he doesn't know if the writer is an OCDO member who thinks about this stuff or some kid who saw some news report about OC and thinks it would be cool to OC.
    5) He wonders if the writer had some encounter with LEO that led to his inquiry. Not an unreasonable possibility and just in case he offers contact information to file a complaint.

    Certainly it is not a pro-OC letter, however, it is far more balanced than most we have read around here over the years.


    Well said...er, typed!

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    You are correct that is more balanced than many yet it still points up the need for education of both police and other citizens. I highlighted the things that concern me (not make me angry or anything just concern for the long-term):

    Regardless of the law it still upsets and or intimidates people when they observe someone openly carrying any type of firearm.

    "Regardless" of the law? This was written by a police officer? A big part of why it upsets people is because they respond to calls on legal activities as if the law was not real. A call for a man with a gun should be treated no differently than one which says "there's a woman with a Khoran looking at me oddly in the grocery store" or "there's a man at Starbucks with a bag of groceries".

    If you have a conceal carry permit I would recommend keeping it concealed. They are several reasons for this. If you have a conceal carry permit Iím sure they explained this in the training.

    One of the reasons for keeping your firearm concealed is safety. I would not want someone coming up from behind me & attempt to disarm me.

    So many things wrong with this sentence. Does he not carry openly when in uniform? What about his officers? Oh, wait, "highly trained, professional officers" are the only ones who can be trusted to now how to control their weapons, I forgot for a minute. What he is really saying is that he is part of a management team that puts officers on the street everyday in an unsafe manner? Also, he implies that wearing openly will somehow incite this activity. I would like to see ten documented cases of this happening within the last 10 years.

    There are a lot of articles on the internet about conceal carry & reasons to keep you weapon concealed. Sounds like maybe you had an incident?

    There are lots of articles on the Internet that the police are brutal, fascist rednecks with masculinity issues too, should we read those and take them to heart?

    Yes, he seems rational but he is also a poster child for how police interpret which laws they wish to enforce/investigate and which they give a pass to according to their collective wisdom. This is a Captain responding to this inquiry. How can we expect rank and file to understand what they should do when lawful activities take place?

    Would you be happy with the comment that "Regardless of the law, our officers must respond when someone is worried that you might have a joint in your pocket or that your insurance may have lapsed on your car"?

    It is an ongoing battle to regain 2A rights as they were intended by our founders. OC'ing is a part of that battle as much as legal actions and maneuvers.

    As long as the PD's feel they have the manpower to respond to calls like this, they will. When they have to put officers on OT they will treat it just like they do calls from nosy neighbors who call to tell them they are suspicious of their neighbor's trash can contents.

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    to: ecocks

    Well said! +1

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    Wow, everyone is basically right! I could only imagine why the officer leans towards the CC side... in general they get a lot of calls for crazy calls like that. Even the comment of... a person calling the cops because they seen a person looking too young to be driving. YES, there are some crazy and old people that will have the 911 on speed dail and they feel they are "helping" socitey by calling every little thing. In general, from what I know of from any department (police, medical, etc)... they really don't want the calls, espeically ones where a person "feels" uncomfortble. Heck, imgaine, back in the 40's.... if you had a black (decent dressed) man walk into a white area... there where calls made to the police about concern citizens not "feeling welling" about the person. If my grandfather where still alive, he'll tell you about it, because he recived calls for police to escort him out of the county back to the city.

    For me, its a form of discrimnation. We have the "rights" to do so... but a few people who feel scared, pick up the phone and try to use the police to do their "dirty work". In my eyes... its a smiple "yes or no" as far as our rights... the state has it as open carry and we are a "weapon state". Now, would the same police department go respond to a call, if a person today walking down the street? With no problems, no guns, weapons, etc. Just walking? NO, they probably threaten the caller with the abuse of the 911 system. But you add in that "danager" of a firearm... now the police have to "investiage".

    People have to get out of their heads that just having a firearm on you doesn't mean you have or about to commit a crime. Maybe seeing a person dropping a firearm in the sewar system or throwing it on the rooftop... that would earn a phone call.

    I say it once and I say it again... education is the key. maybe NRA and other groups, we should sponor commerical ads and make little movies where it shows the benifits of OC. WIth the right funds and placement ads... the laws or at least the people can turn their thoughts about it.

    As a last note... look where we came from...
    Use to have slavery
    Use to not allow women to vote
    Use to "gay bash" people
    So why having a gun is so much trouble? WHen the laws are basically spelled out that we can do so?

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Very good points everyone. I'm tempted to write again from a different email and ask how they would respond to a very tall and muscular man walking around in public with no shirt on if I was scared or intimidated by his presence, just to see the reaction they had, haha.

    The response didnt anger me, its just their way of thinking that irritates me. I wish I could argue it out with them, but that's just not a reality, they are "the law" and what they say goes, as far as they're concerned. Id just be sitting there beating a dead horse.

    The kind of harassment OCers in town get is ridiculous. Reverend Bcal can definitely attest to it as I've read and talked to him about his Hyvee encounter. I avoid that place like the plague now.
    Thanks for all the thoughts and comments everyone.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Keep in mind I haven't given the Captain my name or anything, I'm just using this as a way to find out how they feel about things, and the questions I posed in this email will be backup for not showing id if it came down to it. I know he's going to say, well I recommend you show ID, and all that, but its entertaining to see his response anyway.

    My latest email....

    Ok, thank you for the response. I just wanted to make sure they weren't going to draw their sidearms and order me on the ground or anything like that. I definitely don't want to have a bad encounter with officers.

    What would you recommend I do if I am approached by an officer while he is investigating a call? Keeping my 4th amendment rights in mind, am I required to show him identification even though I'm doing nothing illegal? Is their a municipal statute about showing identification if an officer stops me?
    I just want to be an upstanding citizen of the community and keep a respectful relationship with the police, as I own a home here, and don't plan on moving anytime soon. I want my son to enjoy the good schools here, because where I grew up, the schools were not the best.
    This is a nice city to live in compared to Kansas City Kansas and Kansas City Missouri, which is where I moved from to get away from the constant violence there.

    Thank you very much for corresponding with me sir.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Quote Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
    Very good points everyone. I'm tempted to write again from a different email and ask how they would respond to a very tall and muscular man walking around in public with no shirt on if I was scared or intimidated by his presence, just to see the reaction they had, haha.

    The response didnt anger me, its just their way of thinking that irritates me. I wish I could argue it out with them, but that's just not a reality, they are "the law" and what they say goes, as far as they're concerned. Id just be sitting there beating a dead horse.

    The kind of harassment OCers in town get is ridiculous. Reverend Bcal can definitely attest to it as I've read and talked to him about his Hyvee encounter. I avoid that place like the plague now.
    Thanks for all the thoughts and comments everyone.
    I think he might catch on that it is the same person. Just from the type of email being pretty similar. It really be the same email, but different variable being changed. I not sure how many emails he gets with scenerios concerning this. And having two of them like this; i think he might link them together. Especially no days when its very common for people to have multiple email accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
    Keep in mind I haven't given the Captain my name or anything, I'm just using this as a way to find out how they feel about things, and the questions I posed in this email will be backup for not showing id if it came down to it. I know he's going to say, well I recommend you show ID, and all that, but its entertaining to see his response anyway.

    My latest email....

    Ok, thank you for the response. I just wanted to make sure they weren't going to draw their sidearms and order me on the ground or anything like that. I definitely don't want to have a bad encounter with officers.

    What would you recommend I do if I am approached by an officer while he is investigating a call? Keeping my 4th amendment rights in mind, am I required to show him identification even though I'm doing nothing illegal? Is their a municipal statute about showing identification if an officer stops me?
    I just want to be an upstanding citizen of the community and keep a respectful relationship with the police, as I own a home here, and don't plan on moving anytime soon. I want my son to enjoy the good schools here, because where I grew up, the schools were not the best.
    This is a nice city to live in compared to Kansas City Kansas and Kansas City Missouri, which is where I moved from to get away from the constant violence there.

    Thank you very much for corresponding with me sir.
    Its really a "catch 22"... from my understanding, cops are basically trained to "not trust people"... to look at behaviors, motives (as if they can read minds). Some understand... hey we are all human. Other see themselves as "the law" or even somewhat above the law... but anyone else is way below the law and basically stupid. TO give the cops some credit... depending on the area they work... in a normal 12 hr shift, they will encounter about 9 STUPID calls. Take that 4 days a week and sometimes for the next 20 years. I would imagine that some cops assumed that the "good public" will CCW. and bad azz people will try to OC. Sometimes, a cop mindset will be set from the way the call came in from dispatch. For example, I received a call today for "rubish"???? I was like WTF???? What am I now, a trash collector? We got there, the guy was only using his fire pit. But once again, some "good neighbor" either didn't like the guy or seen a bit of fire and now... the yard is on fire. I think a lot of these calls would stop if the cities charged people for emergency service to respond. Maybe people will give a better look into things.

    Honestly what do you think about that? What if the city/police charge the caller a fee to respond for people OCing? Or some other BS call? I think the 911 would be used less and allow the "real" emergency calls to come through such as; medical, fire, people in fights, being shot, dying...basically real emergencies. Like it or not, those cops already have pre answers to your questions. basically they go to school to answer them, meeting etc. Basically think if it this way... if you are married... you know basically your flaws of your spouse... if you had to stand up in church tomorrow and the question was laid out to you... "How do you view your wife?" Would you be honest or make up an answer ? Policity correct, huh? Same differnce in my thoughts... but good info that you provided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    However, the snarky side of me wants to reply with, "Excellent points, Sir. So when is the PD going to begin implementing a concealed carry only policy for all of its uniformed officers?"
    I not sure that the advantages for civilians to CCW,always apply to LEO. For instance. they say CCW makes it where people dont know that your packing. That not true with cops. Even if they hid it. Since they are in uniform, it be almost a given that they are armed. Now if he was an undercover cop, then it would apply. Also, not only do you know that cops are going to be carrying. They generally always have it on their hip. so you would know where he carrying it. and it generally seems to be on ther 3 oclock or 9oclock position. So cops would be pretty predictable that they are carrying, and where.

    Also, I know a lot of people who are intimidated by cops. It is more their power and i think the uniform then the gun. I not sure the gun being covered would solve the cops intimidation factor.

    So I not sure that really applying stuff thats aimed at civilians, will transfer over to Cops.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
    Yeah, I saw how he dodged my question about how officers were supposed to handle the call. It was an email full of opinions, but I do now have the legality for my records.
    I would write back but can't think of anything to say without sounding like a smartass. Ill just leave it at that and if I'm ever stopped here in town, at least I have something, even though not much, to fall back on of anything happens.
    Please go read your state sunshine laws http://ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm - your email was a valid request for information that the PD failed to properly respond to. There are penalties that should follow their failure, but nothing will happen until you take the next step of compaining that they failed to respond to your request.

    stay safe.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please go read your state sunshine laws http://ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm - your email was a valid request for information that the PD failed to properly respond to. There are penalties that should follow their failure, but nothing will happen until you take the next step of compaining that they failed to respond to your request.

    stay safe.
    Thanks for this info, I never knew anything like this existed. Man have I had the wool over my eyes for a long time....
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

  25. #25
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    I can't wait to hear the response from El Capitan! The anticipation is going to drive me crazy!
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