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St. Joseph PD Emails....

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
Keep in mind I haven't given the Captain my name or anything, I'm just using this as a way to find out how they feel about things, and the questions I posed in this email will be backup for not showing id if it came down to it. I know he's going to say, well I recommend you show ID, and all that, but its entertaining to see his response anyway.

My latest email....

Ok, thank you for the response. I just wanted to make sure they weren't going to draw their sidearms and order me on the ground or anything like that. I definitely don't want to have a bad encounter with officers.

What would you recommend I do if I am approached by an officer while he is investigating a call? Keeping my 4th amendment rights in mind, am I required to show him identification even though I'm doing nothing illegal? Is their a municipal statute about showing identification if an officer stops me?
I just want to be an upstanding citizen of the community and keep a respectful relationship with the police, as I own a home here, and don't plan on moving anytime soon. I want my son to enjoy the good schools here, because where I grew up, the schools were not the best.
This is a nice city to live in compared to Kansas City Kansas and Kansas City Missouri, which is where I moved from to get away from the constant violence there.

Thank you very much for corresponding with me sir.

Its really a "catch 22"... from my understanding, cops are basically trained to "not trust people"... to look at behaviors, motives (as if they can read minds). Some understand... hey we are all human. Other see themselves as "the law" or even somewhat above the law... but anyone else is way below the law and basically stupid. TO give the cops some credit... depending on the area they work... in a normal 12 hr shift, they will encounter about 9 STUPID calls. Take that 4 days a week and sometimes for the next 20 years. I would imagine that some cops assumed that the "good public" will CCW. and bad azz people will try to OC. Sometimes, a cop mindset will be set from the way the call came in from dispatch. For example, I received a call today for "rubish"???? I was like WTF???? What am I now, a trash collector? We got there, the guy was only using his fire pit. But once again, some "good neighbor" either didn't like the guy or seen a bit of fire and now... the yard is on fire. I think a lot of these calls would stop if the cities charged people for emergency service to respond. Maybe people will give a better look into things.

Honestly what do you think about that? What if the city/police charge the caller a fee to respond for people OCing? Or some other BS call? I think the 911 would be used less and allow the "real" emergency calls to come through such as; medical, fire, people in fights, being shot, dying...basically real emergencies. Like it or not, those cops already have pre answers to your questions. basically they go to school to answer them, meeting etc. Basically think if it this way... if you are married... you know basically your flaws of your spouse... if you had to stand up in church tomorrow and the question was laid out to you... "How do you view your wife?" Would you be honest or make up an answer ? Policity correct, huh? Same differnce in my thoughts... but good info that you provided.
 

goalseter88

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
334
Location
Kansas city, Kansas United States
However, the snarky side of me wants to reply with, "Excellent points, Sir. So when is the PD going to begin implementing a concealed carry only policy for all of its uniformed officers?"

I not sure that the advantages for civilians to CCW,always apply to LEO. For instance. they say CCW makes it where people dont know that your packing. That not true with cops. Even if they hid it. Since they are in uniform, it be almost a given that they are armed. Now if he was an undercover cop, then it would apply. Also, not only do you know that cops are going to be carrying. They generally always have it on their hip. so you would know where he carrying it. and it generally seems to be on ther 3 oclock or 9oclock position. So cops would be pretty predictable that they are carrying, and where.

Also, I know a lot of people who are intimidated by cops. It is more their power and i think the uniform then the gun. I not sure the gun being covered would solve the cops intimidation factor.

So I not sure that really applying stuff thats aimed at civilians, will transfer over to Cops.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Yeah, I saw how he dodged my question about how officers were supposed to handle the call. It was an email full of opinions, but I do now have the legality for my records.
I would write back but can't think of anything to say without sounding like a smartass. Ill just leave it at that and if I'm ever stopped here in town, at least I have something, even though not much, to fall back on of anything happens.

Please go read your state sunshine laws http://ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm - your email was a valid request for information that the PD failed to properly respond to. There are penalties that should follow their failure, but nothing will happen until you take the next step of compaining that they failed to respond to your request.

stay safe.
 

G30Mike

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
120
Location
St. Joseph MO
Please go read your state sunshine laws http://ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm - your email was a valid request for information that the PD failed to properly respond to. There are penalties that should follow their failure, but nothing will happen until you take the next step of compaining that they failed to respond to your request.

stay safe.

Thanks for this info, I never knew anything like this existed. Man have I had the wool over my eyes for a long time....
 

G30Mike

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
120
Location
St. Joseph MO
I can't wait to hear the response from El Capitan! The anticipation is going to drive me crazy!

Ikr, not that I'm going to follow his advice, but I'm so curious about what he "recommends" haha. I doubt he will be able to cite any law requiring it.
The sunshine laws may be invoked soon here in Missouri if I can. I'm sick of this police department thinking this city is under their martial law. I may have to be the test case for our rights to be enforced. Wish I had lots of disposable income lol.:cool:
 

chakragod

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
100
Location
St. Joseph, MO
"One of the reasons for keeping your firearm concealed is safety. I would not want someone coming up from behind me & attempt to disarm me."

Ho ho hoooooo
 

G30Mike

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
120
Location
St. Joseph MO
Awww, I think the Captain is getting his panties in a wad..... Could it be time to implement a complaint to state government? See post #18 for the email I sent that he is responding to here.

Here is his canned response......


Question-What would you recommend I do if I am approached by an officer while he is investigating a call?

Answer-Comply with officers commands, beyond that I cannot speculate, every incident/event have different circumstances.
Code of Ordinances can be viewed at this link http://www.stjoemo.info/clerk/code.cfm.
Missouri Revised Statutes can be viewed at this link http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/ STATUTES.HTM
 
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LMTD

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
1,919
Location
, ,
Here is his canned response......

Should not have expected more. Your questions crossed legal boundaries and inferred things. He is a cop, not a lawyer and when you said "keeping my 4a in mind" you made it clear you were fishing. Since you were fishing and asking a question on the law, he has little choice beyond what he did, he is not allowed to give you legal advice, he is not your lawyer. He pointed you to the ordinances and statutes to find the information and interpret for yourself.
 

G30Mike

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
120
Location
St. Joseph MO
Should not have expected more. Your questions crossed legal boundaries and inferred things. He is a cop, not a lawyer and when you said "keeping my 4a in mind" you made it clear you were fishing. Since you were fishing and asking a question on the law, he has little choice beyond what he did, he is not allowed to give you legal advice, he is not your lawyer. He pointed you to the ordinances and statutes to find the information and interpret for yourself.

Yeah I'm kinda new at this. Just seemed like he was getting mad. Trial and error I suppose.
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
I not sure that the advantages for civilians to CCW,always apply to LEO. For instance. they say CCW makes it where people dont know that your packing. That not true with cops. Even if they hid it. Since they are in uniform, it be almost a given that they are armed. Now if he was an undercover cop, then it would apply. Also, not only do you know that cops are going to be carrying. They generally always have it on their hip. so you would know where he carrying it. and it generally seems to be on ther 3 oclock or 9oclock position. So cops would be pretty predictable that they are carrying, and where.

Also, I know a lot of people who are intimidated by cops. It is more their power and i think the uniform then the gun. I not sure the gun being covered would solve the cops intimidation factor.

So I not sure that really applying stuff thats aimed at civilians, will transfer over to Cops.

Agreed. .. But after you go into all that you lose the whole "snarky" thing. ;-)
 

mspgunner

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Ellisville, Missouri, USA
You can whine al you want onthe forum, "we" have a chance to do something about pre-emption"!

I attendendlast night's meeting of the GCLA here in the STL area. They discussed their 2A priorities for 2012.
Public transit and College campus were on the list.
They asked for suggestions from the "membership".
I suggested "pre-emption" for open carry.
The BOD shot it down immediate and point blank!

I suppose some of the pro-2A groups don't even know what 2A rights are about.
January 14th is the BOD meeting for MSSA, I'm going!

We in the open carry community need to contact our legislators and ask them to support a bill for "pre-emption" of open carry rights.
We are not going to get help from the "pro-2A" organiztions.

These and other groups have a lobbyist in Jefferson City. I don't see "our" interests being pushed by him

This is the link to the Missouri House of Representatives:
http://www.house.mo.gov/
There you can find a link to find you House Representative and a "link" to the Missouri Senate to find your State Senator.

St. louis will host the annual NRA convention in April, probably the largest convention in Missouri this year! WE have a governor who has signed pro-2A bills.
And we have a veto-proof 2A Majority in the House and senate.

Pre-emption and even constitutional carry may be within our grasp and another opportunity may never be had again!

Go to the web site, contact your legislator, tell them you want to see a bill to become law supporting your 2nd amendment rights of carrying a firearm without having to pay for a"right which shall not be infringed", you want a right to carry a firearm without "local governements" making a decision that over rides Art. 1 Sec. 23 of the Missouri Constitution, the right ot keep and bear arms.

This can be our year, you can make it happen!
If you don't, who will? The opportunity will be lost.

DO IT NOW!
 

REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
The Captain was polite, however, it is quite evident he let's his personal opinion about OC be carried out regardless of the law. The above bold indicated reading the rest of his email was a waist of time. This comment substantiates the stories I've heard from that area.

The Captain's comment is dead-on with how they will operate and what might be perceived as personal opinion is likely based in stats from the MWAG calls they would or have received. I still get LEOs who want to stare at what's on my hip when I OC. They don't care very much for pointing out that if the roles were reversed they would perceive me as a potential threat.

It's also where things need to be changed. Why departments continue to ignore the statistics that over 95% of criminals who carry will carry conealed is still appalling. We have allowed the media and bad police departments to steer the entire thing to anti-OC and it isn't right. To quote Uncle Ted, "The 2nd Amendment IS my concealed carry permit." They all need to start respecting lawful carry no matter what means of carry is being utilized.
 

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
You can whine al you want onthe forum, "we" have a chance to do something about pre-emption"!

I attendendlast night's meeting of the GCLA here in the STL area. They discussed their 2A priorities for 2012.
Public transit and College campus were on the list.
They asked for suggestions from the "membership".
I suggested "pre-emption" for open carry.
The BOD shot it down immediate and point blank!

I suppose some of the pro-2A groups don't even know what 2A rights are about.
January 14th is the BOD meeting for MSSA, I'm going!

We in the open carry community need to contact our legislators and ask them to support a bill for "pre-emption" of open carry rights.
We are not going to get help from the "pro-2A" organiztions.

These and other groups have a lobbyist in Jefferson City. I don't see "our" interests being pushed by him

This is the link to the Missouri House of Representatives:
http://www.house.mo.gov/
There you can find a link to find you House Representative and a "link" to the Missouri Senate to find your State Senator.

St. louis will host the annual NRA convention in April, probably the largest convention in Missouri this year! WE have a governor who has signed pro-2A bills.
And we have a veto-proof 2A Majority in the House and senate.

Pre-emption and even constitutional carry may be within our grasp and another opportunity may never be had again!

Go to the web site, contact your legislator, tell them you want to see a bill to become law supporting your 2nd amendment rights of carrying a firearm without having to pay for a"right which shall not be infringed", you want a right to carry a firearm without "local governements" making a decision that over rides Art. 1 Sec. 23 of the Missouri Constitution, the right ot keep and bear arms.

This can be our year, you can make it happen!
If you don't, who will? The opportunity will be lost.

DO IT NOW!

Some people are bad with writing letters, anyone willing to post some of the letters they have sent to their represenatives?

EDIT: NM, found a form letter on the other thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98526-Missouri-Pro-2A-organizations-legislation
 
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