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Carry loaded.

BillB

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That's a real stretch and it is somewhat out of context. The thread is on carrying loaded.

It may a low probably event, but so is having to fire a carried gun in self defense. My answer was a factual and correct answer to your direct question. Regarding carrying loaded, maybe he has or intends to acquire pistol with a threaded barrel that he may want to carry loaded.
 
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Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by mathew85

iam going to open carry sometimes but waiting on my CHP before i do. would like the extra insurance. just in case.

How does having a CHP provide you with extra insurance? You can't be 200% legal.

In case some federal agent tries to charge him in VA with a violation of the Gun-Free School Zones Act.

That's a real stretch and it is somewhat out of context. The thread is on carrying loaded.

It may a low probably event, but so is having to fire a carried gun in self defense. My answer was a factual and correct answer to your direct question. Regarding carrying loaded, maybe he has or intends to acquire pistol with a threaded barrel that he may want to carry loaded.

OK - I'm tired but I'll play.

The quote did not reference being able to carry in school zones legally nor threaded barrels, but the act of OCing a loaded gun - he was/is going to wait to OC a loaded gun until he has his CHP for the extra insurance that gives him. If he meant something else, he did not say it.

That is the context of the thread and how I answered. Your responses may be accurate, but nevertheless are not relevant - does not relate to the gun being loaded.

OCing a loaded gun is already legal, getting a CHP does NOT make it more legal.
 

peter nap

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We've had the GFZ threads before Bill and while there is pretty much zero chance of it even being illegal (Remember the Supreme Court threw much of the GFZ out before), we have members that are concerned about it and that's really their business IMO.

There are legitimate reasons for getting a CHP.

I have to conceal for work
I am uncomfortable open carrying
I just got a new underwear holster
EVEN

I want to conceal..

All good reasons to get a CHP......

But to get on an OC site and ask if it's illegal, then after being told it wasn't..


Getting back on and saying "iam going to open carry sometimes but waiting on my CHP before i do. would like the extra insurance. just in case."

Is NOT a legitimate reason and actually fuels P4P. It's pure and simple..Playing Dress Up.

He will be first in line when some idiot legislator wants to make it legal to use rifles to hunt Deer in downtown Alexandria, provided they have a CHP or when one gun a month comes around again and CHP's are exempt says, That's OK, I have a CHP".

I don't have the patience for that.
 

BillB

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OCing a loaded gun is already legal, getting a CHP does NOT make it more legal.

Not always true. As has been previously cited in this thread, OCing a loaded center-fire pistol with a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a silencer is illegal in some VA cities and counties unless you have a CHP or qualify for some other exemption to this law - § 18.2-287.4.
 

peter nap

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Not always true. As has been previously cited in this thread, OCing a loaded center-fire pistol with a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a silencer is illegal in some VA cities and counties unless you have a CHP or qualify for some other exemption to this law - § 18.2-287.4.

That's entirely true Bill and that is a legitimate reason to get a CHP......but that's not what he asked and that's not why he's getting a CHP.
 

BillB

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We've had the GFZ threads before Bill and while there is pretty much zero chance of it even being illegal (Remember the Supreme Court threw much of the GFZ out before), we have members that are concerned about it and that's really their business IMO.

I don't worry much about this law even though it's a felony and still on the books. Unless the ATF starts doing traffic stops in school zones, I see very little risk.

With respect to the CHP, I view it as just another tax. At least it's not a fiscally onerous tax at just $10 a year, but I would like to see it abolished. I've read about your P4P distaste in past threads - can't say that I disagree with you here. But, as with the federal GFZ law, I just don't worry that much about the CHP tax. I view it as merely another inappropriate and unjust tax that I have to pay here in VA. There are some other VA taxes that I also think are inappropriate and unjust, and some of these other taxes are fiscally onerous - at least to me they are.
 
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Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by Grapeshot

OCing a loaded gun is already legal, getting a CHP does NOT make it more legal.

Not always true. As has been previously cited in this thread, OCing a loaded center-fire pistol with a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a silencer is illegal in some VA cities and counties unless you have a CHP or qualify for some other exemption to this law - § 18.2-287.4.

I can see that you are having trouble keeping the remarks in context. Maybe it would help you by my adding a word: IF OCing a loaded gun is already legal, getting a CHP does NOT make it more legal. As OC is legal in VA, the restrictions you enumerate only modify where that may be accomplished, not if the gun is loaded or not. Would you also add the General Assembly Building to your list? A CHP is required there to carry a gun, BUT there is no distinction on whether the gun is loaded. Similar application with carrying in K-12 schools, courtrooms and jails - whether the gun is loaded or not doesn't change a darned thing.

1) Please show where in § 18.2-287.4 there is any reference to a gun being loaded or not - including in any of the restrictions/exceptions.

2) There is adequate reference in case law that a gun need not be actually loaded to be considered/recognized as a deadly weapon.

Without any animosity, I suggest that you are redirecting the salient point that OC loaded is legal and a CHP does not "make it more legal." If mathew85 intended to send a different message, he did not - only he can modify/clarify his intent. We cannot. To do otherwise is to put words in his mouth and is pure supposition.
 

BillB

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Grapeshot said:
1) Please show where in § 18.2-287.4 there is any reference to a gun being loaded or not - including in any of the restrictions/exceptions.

Reading is fundamental...


"§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol..."


http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4
 
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Marco

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§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.


The above only applies to
:certain areas
Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.
and
is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition
or
shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered
or
designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock


Folks carying with a 20rd mag or less inserted "aren't in violation"
Folks carrying threaded barrels and or with 21+rd mags aren't in violation if they aren't in one of the above locations.
Folk carrying rifles with fixed stocks aren't in violation if they aren't in the above locations
Folks carrying Keltec KSG or Saiga shotguns aren't in violation if they aren't in the above locations.
Folks carrying keltec PMR aren't in violation regard less of location.


A valid CHP makes all this nonsense a moot point.
Which is pretty stupid.


Edit:
I should pay more attention
 
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Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by Grapeshot

1) Please show where in § 18.2-287.4 there is any reference to a gun being loaded or not - including in any of the restrictions/exceptions.

Reading is fundamental...


"§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol..."


http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4

Reading may be fundamental, but interpretation/understanding is relative - in this case germane to the issue of the OP of this thread = unloaded. Loaded or not = loaded or unloaded.

§ 18.2-287.4 in referencing "loaded", there is no pointed reference of unloaded being less/more legal/illegal. Actually since by omission on at least on point - OCing an unloaded gun might be arguably more legal under this statute.

OCing a loaded handgun is legal in Virginia. You cannot have an exception w/o first having a rule. Same applies to concealed carry in Virginia - it is legal. Are there exceptions? Sure are, but that doesn't change the veracity of the response.

Are we having fun yet? :lol:
 
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BillB

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Maybe User can help your understanding of this statute Grape, apparently I can not. :(
 

Grapeshot

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Maybe User can help your understanding of this statute Grape, apparently I can not. :(

Don't take it so seriously. I believe that I understand the statute(s) very well. User is highly respected and my "go to" attorney.

The point you are apparently missing is this is NOT about what is defined in/by statute. It is ALL about whether OCing an unloaded handgun becomes more legal with a CHP. I submit categorically that it does not - indeed as pointed out earlier, there is ample evidence in case law to the contrary.

In fact faux guns (i.e. toys, incapable of being loaded) may rise to that level. Brandish a non-firing replica or commit a robbery with a cap gun and you will very likely be charged with a weapon violation under the Code of Virginia.
 

Marco

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iam going to open carry sometimes but waiting on my CHP before i do. would like the extra insurance. just in case.


IMHO, it appears that this OC'er stating he wants to OC but won't until he gets his CHP is scared to excercise his rights without a gov't permission slip even though one has nothing to do with the other..

IMHO, nothing wrong with getting a CHP but getting a CHP so you can feel safe/better OC'ing?
 

BillB

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The point you are apparently missing is this is NOT about what is defined in/by statute. It is ALL about whether OCing an unloaded handgun becomes more legal with a CHP. I submit categorically that it does not - indeed as pointed out earlier, there is ample evidence in case law to the contrary.

So, now the issue that was previously loaded has suddenly become unloaded, the opposite? Again, I'll quote from your previous post (#27):

Grapeshot said:
As OC is legal in VA, the restrictions you enumerate only modify where that may be accomplished, not if the gun is loaded or not.

...1) Please show where in § 18.2-287.4 there is any reference to a gun being loaded or not - including in any of the restrictions/exceptions.

Grape, the statute clearly applies only to loaded guns. It does not apply to unloaded guns.
 
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Marco

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This the orginal question:

SNIP~ said:
One can OC Hot and not get ticketed for it right? I read the laws on the VSP website and it said one cannot. any advise will help.
So we agree, the answer is yes.

A CHP isn't an issue unless there is another factor not discussed at this time.

OC isn't addressed in VA statute.
OC'ing loaded or unloaded is the same, both legal.

CC'ing loaded or unloaded without a Valid permit is illegal
CC'ing loaded or unloaded with a Valid permit is legal
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308
The CC statute doesn't address loaded or unloaded:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material



OC is addressed on VSP's website:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Transporting.shtm
Virginia does not require firearm registration nor is it necessary to obtain a permit before carrying a firearm or other such weapon openly about the person except where prohibited by statute
 
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BillB

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IMHO, it appears that this OC'er stating he wants to OC but won't until he gets his CHP is scared to excercise his rights without a gov't permission slip even though one has nothing to do with the other..

IMHO, nothing wrong with getting a CHP but getting a CHP so you can feel safe/better OC'ing?

I believe User has had at least one client, maybe more, that he successfully defended after being charged with carrying a handgun in a closed but unlocked container within a personal vehicle. I don't know that this qualifies as OCing, but the point is that a CHP would have prevented the charge. I think it's quite rational for someone to desire having a CHP when OCing to reduce the risk of being inappropriately charged with carrying concealed. Not everyone OCing is an activist willing to take on the cops and courts.
 

Marco

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I believe User has had at least one client, maybe more, that he successfully defended after being charged with carrying a handgun in a closed but unlocked container within a personal vehicle. I don't know that this qualifies as OCing, but the point is that a CHP would have prevented the charge. I think it's quite rational for someone to desire having a CHP when OCing to reduce the risk of being inappropriately charged with carrying concealed. Not everyone OCing is an activist willing to take on the cops and courts.


(IIRC) That person was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, (iirc) the weapon(s) wasn't visible so it wasn't OC'ed,
(iirc) they informed LE about the firearm.
Don't know how non visible firearm(s) inside a packpack or case is OC'ed.
(IIRC) The charges were dismissed as there was no evidence to wrong doing.

18.2-308 http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM
B/10.
Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.
Loaded or unloaded isn't addressed.

One can be charged with anything as we all know.

Agreed, everyone that carries openly isn't an OC activist.
A CHP isn't legally required or needed to legally OC loaded or unloaded.

A CHP maybe needed if one is worried about being falsely charged with CC'ing when they aren't.
That has little to do with OC and is more a reflection of our legal system that is proving more and more each day that is it broken.


Edit:
and my answer to the broken system: "Hey, jackass get your Government off my freedom!!!"
 
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Grapeshot

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So, now the issue that was previously loaded has suddenly become unloaded, the opposite? Again, I'll quote from your previous post (#27):

Quoting the OP: "Im knew (sic) to OC and was wondering if someone could fill me in. One can OC Hot and not get ticketed for it right? I read the laws on the VSP website and it said one cannot. any advise will help." Hot = loaded; the reverse side of the same coin to which he posed the question is unloaded.

I have not changed my direction nor my opinion. When you open that bag of chips, you can't just eat one.

Grape, the statute clearly applies only to loaded guns. It does not apply to unloaded guns.

Patent failure - § 18.2-287.4 does apply to unloaded guns.
If you think it does not include unloaded guns, then you are saying that it is legal to carry unloaded w/o a permit a gun designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock (amongst others) in the listed municipalities.


That statute does NOT say that the magazine need be IN the gun - only "with" it. Further the rest of the operative phrases are separated with the word "or" making them stand alone conditions.

This has been "interesting", but I have more important things to do - the cat box needs to be emptied.
 
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