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Thread: Fredericksburg shooting, delayed charges

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Fredericksburg shooting, delayed charges

    This may be an interesting case to follow.

    Two men involved in a shooting (at each other.) One hit in the shoulder, one not at all.

    Of note: Uninjured man initially released, but then later updates indicate charges will be sought against both.

    Injured man: possession of a firearm after being convicted of a felony, reckless discharge of a weapon, and discharging a firearm in the City limits
    Uninjured man: malicious wounding, reckless discharge of a weapon, and discharging a firearm in the City limits

    Sounds like they may have initially thought it was a self-defense shooting, but then later decided maybe not so much.

    I seem to recall either a case law cite or someone mentioning that a convicted felon may use a gun for self-defense, if the situation warrants. Not sure how that could happen, since it would be a crime for him to have it before the incident... but anyway.

    TFred

    Article from Police Blog.

    Shooting Investigation

    UPDATE:

    Charges are now being sought against both subjects involved in the shooting on White St last night.

    Expected charges against injured male: possession of a firearm after being convicted of a felony, reckless discharge of a weapon, and discharging a firearm in the City limits.

    Expected charges against second male: malicious wounding, reckless discharge of a weapon, and discharging a firearm in the City limits.

    900 block White St, 1/3 5:17 pm. Police responded to several reports of gunfire in the street. Upon arrival, officers found one 27-year-old Fredericksburg resident inside a house with a shooting injury to his shoulder. The injury was not life-threatening and the subject was transported by ambulance to the hospital. Officers also found one male subject standing in the street with a weapon; he was immediately secured in investigative detention but he has since been released without charges. Two additional males were also detained at the scene due to their possible involvement with the incident, and they have also been released.

    Two weapons were recovered at the scene.

    The early investigation indicates that both the injured male and the armed subject taken into custody were involved in a verbal altercation concerning a personal dispute. The altercation became physical and both subjects drew weapons and exchanged fire. The injured male then retreated into his home. The investigation has determined that the injured male is a convicted felon and charges are pending against him in connection with his possession and discharge of a firearm.

    The investigation is ongoing and additional information relating to the identities and any charges against involved parties will be released as it becomes available.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Sounds like a nice neighborhood.........errrrr HOOD.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This may be an interesting case to follow.

    I seem to recall either a case law cite or someone mentioning that a convicted felon may use a gun for self-defense, if the situation warrants. Not sure how that could happen, since it would be a crime for him to have it before the incident... but anyway.

    TFred
    It's at www.virginia1774.org - I know you can find it. And as you note, it's going to hinge on when he got possession of the gun.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It's at www.virginia1774.org - I know you can find it. And as you note, it's going to hinge on when he got possession of the gun.

    stay safe.
    Somehow I suspect they will be assuming that he had the gun before the beginning of the confrontation... As DocWalker noted...

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Another update. The spaghetti tangles.

    TFred

    Snips:

    Belgrave and Broadus began arguing in the street and eventually the dispute became physical. Both men pulled out guns and began firing at each other; Broadus was the only one who got hit.

    As a convicted felon, Broadus is not allowed to legally possess a firearm. Belgrave has a concealed weapons permit.
    Remember, at this point, both men are charged with crimes for their actions.
    Last edited by TFred; 01-04-2012 at 05:40 PM.

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    Sounds like this was 'mutual affray,' and not a clear 'self-defense' on either side.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Sounds like this was 'mutual affray,' and not a clear 'self-defense' on either side.
    Simultaneous stupidity…..

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Dueling perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Simultaneous stupidity…..
    A creative magistrate might prosecute them for Dueling. The other 2 "gentlemen" that were detained were quite obviously their "Seconds"! Were the pistols recovered a "Matched Pair" of Raven .25 autos by any chance?

    From en.wikipedia.org:

    Virginia passed the Anti-Dueling Act in 1810, creating civil and criminal penalties for the most usual causes of duelling, rather than for the act itself. It is still on the books. Virginia Code §8.01-45 creates a Civil Action for insulting words. Virginia Code §18.2-416 makes it a crime to use abusive language to another under circumstances reasonably calculated to provoke a breach of the peace. Virginia Code §18.2-417 makes certain slander and libel a crime.[68]

    Duelling began to fall out of favor in America in the 18th century, and the death of former United States Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in a duel against the sitting Vice President Aaron Burr in 1804 did not help its declining popularity. Benjamin Franklin denounced the practice as uselessly violent, and George Washington encouraged his officers to refuse challenges during the American Revolutionary War because he believed that the death by duelling of officers would have threatened the success of the war effort.
    In 1820, the American naval hero Stephen Decatur was killed in a duel with fellow naval officer James Barron. Between 1798 and the Civil War, the US Navy lost two-thirds as many officers to dueling as it did in combat at sea. Many of those killed or wounded were midshipmen or junior officers. Despite prominent deaths, such as that of Decatur, duelling persisted because of contemporary ideals of chivalry, particularly in the South, and because of the threat of ridicule if a challenge was rejected.[37][38] Among the lower classes in this period, gouging was a form of fighting that combatants also engaged in to defend their honor.[39]
    By the end of the 19th century, legalised duelling was almost extinct in most of the world. Some U.S. states do not have any statute or constitutional provision prohibiting duelling, though the party causing injury in a duel may be prosecuted under the applicable laws relating to bodily harm or manslaughter.

    I wonder what the possible punishment is for this statue vs. the modern-day statutes under which they have been charged?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    A creative magistrate might prosecute them for Dueling. The other 2 "gentlemen" that were detained were quite obviously their "Seconds"! Were the pistols recovered a "Matched Pair" of Raven .25 autos by any chance?

    From en.wikipedia.org:

    Virginia passed the Anti-Dueling Act in 1810, creating civil and criminal penalties for the most usual causes of duelling, rather than for the act itself. It is still on the books. Virginia Code §8.01-45 creates a Civil Action for insulting words. Virginia Code §18.2-416 makes it a crime to use abusive language to another under circumstances reasonably calculated to provoke a breach of the peace. Virginia Code §18.2-417 makes certain slander and libel a crime.[68]

    Duelling began to fall out of favor in America in the 18th century, and the death of former United States Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in a duel against the sitting Vice President Aaron Burr in 1804 did not help its declining popularity. Benjamin Franklin denounced the practice as uselessly violent, and George Washington encouraged his officers to refuse challenges during the American Revolutionary War because he believed that the death by duelling of officers would have threatened the success of the war effort.
    In 1820, the American naval hero Stephen Decatur was killed in a duel with fellow naval officer James Barron. Between 1798 and the Civil War, the US Navy lost two-thirds as many officers to dueling as it did in combat at sea. Many of those killed or wounded were midshipmen or junior officers. Despite prominent deaths, such as that of Decatur, duelling persisted because of contemporary ideals of chivalry, particularly in the South, and because of the threat of ridicule if a challenge was rejected.[37][38] Among the lower classes in this period, gouging was a form of fighting that combatants also engaged in to defend their honor.[39]
    By the end of the 19th century, legalised duelling was almost extinct in most of the world. Some U.S. states do not have any statute or constitutional provision prohibiting duelling, though the party causing injury in a duel may be prosecuted under the applicable laws relating to bodily harm or manslaughter.

    I wonder what the possible punishment is for this statue vs. the modern-day statutes under which they have been charged?
    Great post and you're getting as bad as me!

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Great post and you're getting as bad as me!
    Thank you, Kind Sir. "As bad as you?" In what way? I value your advice and enjoy your posts.
    Coming from you, it is high praise indeed!

    See you in 11 days?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It's at www.virginia1774.org - I know you can find it. And as you note, it's going to hinge on when he got possession of the gun.

    stay safe.
    Not just when, but also how, as he is a convicted felon.

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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    From what I've read, on a few accounts, they were both armed during the whole ordeal, and both pulled and shot. One shot straighter, one not so straight.
    The Second Amendment is in place
    in case the politicians ignore the others

    A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Sounds like this was 'mutual affray,' and not a clear 'self-defense' on either side.
    I'm not so sure. If you're having a physical altercation and "the other guy" pulls a gun are you to NOT pull yours?? Now if you made it known you had a gun by boasting about it or saying, "I'll shoot your ass", or some such that would be different. IANAL....

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    I'm not so sure. If you're having a physical altercation and "the other guy" pulls a gun are you to NOT pull yours?? Now if you made it known you had a gun by boasting about it or saying, "I'll shoot your ass", or some such that would be different. IANAL....
    Go follow the hints above and read the case law. It is, to say the least, interesting.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    A creative magistrate might prosecute them for Dueling. The other 2 "gentlemen" that were detained were quite obviously their "Seconds"! Were the pistols recovered a "Matched Pair" of Raven .25 autos by any chance?

    From en.wikipedia.org:

    Virginia passed the Anti-Dueling Act in 1810, creating civil and criminal penalties for the most usual causes of duelling, rather than for the act itself. It is still on the books. Virginia Code §8.01-45 creates a Civil Action for insulting words. Virginia Code §18.2-416 makes it a crime to use abusive language to another under circumstances reasonably calculated to provoke a breach of the peace. Virginia Code §18.2-417 makes certain slander and libel a crime.[68]

    Duelling began to fall out of favor in America in the 18th century, and the death of former United States Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in a duel against the sitting Vice President Aaron Burr in 1804 did not help its declining popularity. Benjamin Franklin denounced the practice as uselessly violent, and George Washington encouraged his officers to refuse challenges during the American Revolutionary War because he believed that the death by duelling of officers would have threatened the success of the war effort.
    In 1820, the American naval hero Stephen Decatur was killed in a duel with fellow naval officer James Barron. Between 1798 and the Civil War, the US Navy lost two-thirds as many officers to dueling as it did in combat at sea. Many of those killed or wounded were midshipmen or junior officers. Despite prominent deaths, such as that of Decatur, duelling persisted because of contemporary ideals of chivalry, particularly in the South, and because of the threat of ridicule if a challenge was rejected.[37][38] Among the lower classes in this period, gouging was a form of fighting that combatants also engaged in to defend their honor.[39]
    By the end of the 19th century, legalised duelling was almost extinct in most of the world. Some U.S. states do not have any statute or constitutional provision prohibiting duelling, though the party causing injury in a duel may be prosecuted under the applicable laws relating to bodily harm or manslaughter.

    I wonder what the possible punishment is for this statue vs. the modern-day statutes under which they have been charged?
    You have way to much time on your hands...or you have been dueling recently.....lol

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Go follow the hints above and read the case law. It is, to say the least, interesting.

    stay safe.
    Great 1774 link.....

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Both men have now been arrested. It sounds a lot to me like they decided to arrest and charge them both, and let the courts sort it all out.

    Interesting to notice that the one who has the CHP turned himself in, while the convicted felon was arrested at his girlfriend's house.

    If nothing else, the CHP guy seems to be trying to appear less like a criminal.

    TFred


    http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/city...report-152012/

    UPDATE TO SHOOTING/WHITE ST:

    January 5th, 2012 10:31 am - Anthony Belgrave, 33, of unknown address was arrested for malicious wounding, reckless discharge of a weapon, and discharging a firearm in the City limits. Belgrave turned himself in at Police Headquarters this morning at 5:00 am and is incarcerated at the Rappahannock Regional Jail.

    http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/city...rrest-updates/

    Arrest Updates

    January 5th, 2012 4:37 pm - Cortez Broadus, 27, of Fredericksburg was arrested at his girlfriend’s home on White Street this afternoon. Broadus is charged with possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, reckless discharge of a weapon, and unlawful discharge of a weapon in the City limits. Broadus was involved in the exchange of gunfire in the 900 block of White Street on January 3 and was injured during the incident.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dawg View Post
    From what I've read, on a few accounts, they were both armed during the whole ordeal, and both pulled and shot. One shot straighter, one not so straight.
    I told ya... 10 paces and turn...

    There you have it.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    IMO, firearms courses should spend more time talking about when NOT to use your firearm, how to be the 'grey man', how to de-escalate, how to run away, drive away, how to use verbal techniques, how not to go to stupid places, do things stupid, be around stupid people and that there is rarely if ever a firing solution to anything in modern society. (I think even OC-ers can practice 'grey man' techniques and many do).

    They should give scenarios and say 'who would draw their firearm here' to the class and show them when and when not to use their HG.

    Thanks to TFred for posting these.

    $.02
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Good grief, Badger Johnson! We'd never get out of class if things turned your way.

    Why are you such a nanny-ninny, anyhow? It seems of late that you are advocating for folks "being told" this or that, as opposed to letting them figure it out for themselves. Yes, a CHP class ought to cover the basics of defense of self and innocent others, but after that you are and should be on your own. Handgun ownership is a huge responsibility, so let those who have undertaken it be responsible.

    And why are you even discussing CHP classes? Sure, education/training is always a good thing, but there is no course one must attend before being allowed to OC, which is the focus of this forum. We all know you chose not to OC for fear that some rogue cop will throw you to the ground and permanently paralyze you. That's OK - nobody here is saying you have to OC. But why do you always turn the discussion to concealed carry and CHPs?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  22. #22
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Good grief, Badger Johnson! We'd never get out of class if things turned your way.

    Why are you such a nanny-ninny, anyhow? It seems of late that you are advocating for folks "being told" this or that, as opposed to letting them figure it out for themselves. Yes, a CHP class ought to cover the basics of defense of self and innocent others, but after that you are and should be on your own. Handgun ownership is a huge responsibility, so let those who have undertaken it be responsible.

    And why are you even discussing CHP classes? Sure, education/training is always a good thing, but there is no course one must attend before being allowed to OC, which is the focus of this forum. We all know you chose not to OC for fear that some rogue cop will throw you to the ground and permanently paralyze you. That's OK - nobody here is saying you have to OC. But why do you always turn the discussion to concealed carry and CHPs?

    stay safe.
    Why? The news article said:
    Belgrave has a concealed weapons permit.
    I'm sorry for posting on CC issues and will try not to do so in the future, unless it's on topic. I don't ever recall STARTING A TOPIC on CC issues; maybe I've said something about it in the

    Why are you such a nanny-ninny, anyhow?
    Why are you making PERSONAL comments about me? Isn't there an OCDO rule against personal attacks. I SHOULD report this post (lot of good it will do), but I have a lot of respect for you and I try to keep it clinical and analytical. Have I EVER attacked another poster personally? You've done this repeatedly. I'll pose the same question to you...why are you threatened by people who are 'ninnies' (your word)?

    'Nobody is saying I have to OC'
    On the contrary, many are saying that including you and Peter Nap and the Moderators are implying if I want to stay here I should OC. Normally I'd AGREE with you. I shouldn't be here unless I OC AND support OC. But, sadly, I like some of you guys and hope I contribute something. If asked I will leave or lurk.

    If we're trading insults, I COULD say something about people here but I don't. For example only: "In the morning, I could decide to 'butch up' and OC, but so-and-so would still be obese...and can't ride the roller coaster."

    Why lower yourself to making repeated personal comments about me? Talk about the issues. That's why we're here.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 01-07-2012 at 07:56 AM.
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  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Promoting CC over OC on these forums is like selling tainted fish on the pier - it even smells bad. Don't expect us to consume it or feed it to our family and friends - more importantly expect that we will not buy what you are selling. Likely we'll suggest that you may ingest that which you put on your own plate.

    In the beginning OCDO was created and it was good. There was however no rest on the seventh day - all days being created equal and dedicated to the principle that open carrying a properly holstered handgun was meet and right so to do.



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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    I told ya... 10 paces and turn...

    There you have it.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Why? The news article said:
    I'm sorry for posting on CC issues and will try not to do so in the future, unless it's on topic. I don't ever recall STARTING A TOPIC on CC issues; maybe I've said something about it in the
    Yes, the two jerks were CCing, but my comment was directed at your suggestion about CHP classes focusing on when someone cannot shoot, as opposed to when it might be either excusable or justified. Gow about you staying on topic instead of trying to divert attention?


    Why are you making PERSONAL comments about me? Isn't there an OCDO rule against personal attacks. I SHOULD report this post (lot of good it will do), but I have a lot of respect for you and I try to keep it clinical and analytical. Have I EVER attacked another poster personally? You've done this repeatedly. I'll pose the same question to you...why are you threatened by people who are 'ninnies' (your word)?
    I called you a nanny-ninny because you are one. And because it has a great deal of bearing on the issue under discussion. I'd call that clinical and analytical. Again, you are trying to divert attention.


    On the contrary, many are saying that including you and Peter Nap and the Moderators are implying if I want to stay here I should OC. Normally I'd AGREE with you. I shouldn't be here unless I OC AND support OC. But, sadly, I like some of you guys and hope I contribute something. If asked I will leave or lurk.
    I have never said that you should OC, and as a matter of fact explicitly said that it was OK if you chose not to.


    If we're trading insults, I COULD say something about people here but I don't. For example only: "In the morning, I could decide to 'butch up' and OC, but so-and-so would still be morbidly obese...and too short to ride the roller coaster."
    So, my repeating your stated reason for not OCing is insulting? I will not dignify the rest of your screed with further notice.


    Why lower yourself to making repeated personal comments about me? Talk about the issues. That's why we're here.

    So your repeated posting of comments that swing the discussion from OC towards CC are not issues? And are not germane? How would you prefer that I comment on that behavior so that it is not "personal"?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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