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Thread: The NDAA vague enough for indefinite Citizen Rights violation?

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Question The NDAA vague enough for indefinite Citizen Rights violation?

    http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2012...-police-state/ .Thats how I see vague laws being used,don't You!
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    It would be my opinion that by creating a law that voluntarily and forcefully eliminates any one of our rights as american citizens it would be grounds for the lawsuit, our government is getting waaaayyy too much power, and they are doing things without our concent, doesnt make me too happy. If this was voted on by WE THE PEOPLE it would have been immediately shot down.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Doesnt work that way anymore. If you protest, you might be sent to a FEMA camp. As of the 1st, they can hold you indefinitely without trial, thanks to Obama, which signed the measure "under great personal reservation".

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    all hail the supreme leader Obama!
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    What scares me, almost as much as this law, and our government, is those among us who claim we have nothing to fear; that we are simply overreacting.

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    Please give the credit where it is due, to congress, who crafted and passed the measure signed by the President. To the greedy legislators who placed an unrelated amendment/rider into the required military bill. Until the President gets the line-item veto, it's an all or none signature. If he had not signed it, you would all be complaining about how he refused to pay our soldiers and sailors.

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    That can be remedied far easier than this....

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Point of legal procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    all hail the supreme leader Obama!
    There are plenty of Tyrants in D.C.
    Remember, a bill cannot become a law without 1st being passed by both branches of the legislature ie {the House of reps [Republican majority control]} and the {Senate [barely controlled by the thin Democratic majority]} This goes to show that neither side is truly working in the best interests of "we the people" anymore.

    Just my honest opinion.
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    Problem is, it IS the law now.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Problem is, it IS the law now.
    Yeah,

    Now the issue will be how to get this illegal "law" tossed along with all the dim-witted so called servants of the people who voted it in. My God, don't these forking ice-holes ever look at the Constitution? Hell I'd be happy if any of them could remember the bill of rights! I guess as long as the elites are protected to hell with the peasants?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyieZ...eature=related
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 01-06-2012 at 12:13 AM. Reason: link
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    They look at the constitution, they know it like the demons know the Bible, better than most Americans.

    History is repeating itself, and nobody is going to do anything about it.

    Even here, we arent allowed to talk about how to fix it, and typing this sentence, might land me in some FEMA camp.

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    I'm not a big fan of Naomi Wolfe, but she pointed out something that made me take notice.

    She pointed out that historically these kinds of laws end up being used by the political elites against each other.

    I immediately thought of the Roman Republic, before the Roman Empire. As that Republic declined, say in the last forty years, ruling elites turned on each other. It wasn't a case of the elites beat up on the average citizen, it was elites jockeying for advantage and political power. It got kinda brutal. If you were a politically active elite in say the last 15 years of the Republic, your life and property were in potential danger.

    I have a sneaking feeling the passage of this law is another step on the road to ruin.

    Remember, as the Roman Republic declined, as the infighting between the elites progressed, it reached a point where Julius Caesar's could come to power, creating factions, and whose death could touch off a civil war, and his heir Octavian could become Augustus Caesar, the first emperor.

    It wasn't a dictator seizing power in a single stroke. It was a progression of events, a deterioration in the political scene, each deterioration setting the stage for the next. It was the instability amongst the elites that brought it about, not tyranny aimed at the common citizen.

    This law might be a milepost in our deterioration. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it is used and whether it is struck down. Don't forget we've already had one serious episode of ruling elites going after others--Lincoln tried to have Chief Justice Taney arrested; and did have some other elites arrested. So, its not like it can't happen here.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-06-2012 at 01:03 AM.

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    I too think of History, I think of the Jews, who also found out what would happen to them, I guess we'll wait and see too.

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    I have just briefly looked at this, but SO FAR looks ok to me. Criminals and Terrorists have way to many rights and ways to slip though our legal system. This looks like a ATTEMPT to close some gaps.

    Ill be looking into it more.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy05 View Post
    I have just briefly looked at this, but SO FAR looks ok to me. Criminals and Terrorists have way to many rights and ways to slip though our legal system. This looks like a ATTEMPT to close some gaps.

    Ill be looking into it more.
    No offense, but try to look at it from a civil liberties point of view and not from a federal agents.
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No offense, but try to look at it from a civil liberties point of view and not from a federal agents.
    +1000

    From a law enforcement point of view, this is a good thing. Having the ability to arrest anyone for suspected terrorism would be great.....for law enforcement.

    However, the mere protest against big government could land you in a federal prison...indefinitely....if a military judge deems that to be an act of terrorism.

    The entire bill is a joke. For your next assignment, look up beastiality and the NDAA. There is a portion of this bill that repeals a previous law prohibiting sodomy and beastiality among military personnel. Kind of makes you wonder.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Yeah,

    Now the issue will be how to get this illegal "law" tossed ....

    http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3676/show

    H.R.3676 - To amend the detainee provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 to specifically state that United States citizens may not be detained against their will without all the rights of due process afforded to citizens in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution of the United States.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    maybe they can add something in there too that will not allow a drone strike on a citizen without a trial
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    maybe they can add something in there too that will not allow a drone strike on a citizen without a trial
    Especially on those pesky OC'ers.

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    To get the offending portion of the law struck down one needs to have a lawyer, go to trial, lose, then get your lawyer to file an appeal, and so on and so forth.....if you can't get past the first part, the having a lawyer part, the rest won't happen.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    You dont get a trial, much less a lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy05 View Post
    I have just briefly looked at this, but SO FAR looks ok to me. Criminals and Terrorists have way to many rights and ways to slip though our legal system. This looks like a ATTEMPT to close some gaps.

    Ill be looking into it more.
    Huh!?!

    The whole point of a trial is to figure out whether the accused really is a criminal. To figure out whether the person making the accusation is correct, in error, politically motivated, jumping the gun, biased, looking to enhance his own career, etc., etc., etc.

    Basically, you've fallen for the trap laid by non-thinkers. They assume that just because someone is accused, then he really is a criminal or terrorist.

    Take a look at the cases of Richard Jewel and Dr. Steven Hatfill.

    Jewel was trying to help solve the case, in fact he was the person who first reported the bomb. The FBI was so intent on catching somebody, anybody for the Atlanta Olympics bombing, they set him up to give some video-taped advice. They wanted to twist the video into evidence to be used to prosecute Jewel. Jewel smelled a rat at the last moment and decline to make the video. The memo's from FBI headquarters to the Atlanta field office are in the public hands now I believe.

    Dr. Hatfill was suspected of the anthrax attacks in 2001. The FBI destroyed his career and reputation. Eventually he received a settlement from them.

    We already have some evidence that Afghan warlords were kidnapping young men and turning them over to the US as "terrorists" to collect rewards--some of those people in Guantanamo may not be terrorists at all.

    These are not even the tip of the ice-berg. History is littered--littered!--with examples of prosecutions arising from every motive except putting away a bad guy.

    "Ways to slip through our legal system" are actually your due process rights. "Ways to slip through our legal system" is just a variant of "he got off on a technicality", or "a bleeding heart judge let him off on a technicality". What!?! Wrong target! The judge is supposed to let off the accused if there is technically a violation of their rights! The correct target is the police and prosecutors who couldn't bring a case properly, or violated the accused's rights. Many of those little "technicalities" are designed to protect the 4th and 5th Amendment, and to guarantee fairness during the trial process. The rules of the trial process are better known as your due process rights--part of the 5th Amendment. If an accussed gets off on a technicality, it is because the cops or prosecutor effed up; the judge was doing his job.

    It has long been a maxim of freedom in this country that some criminals getting away with it are the price we pay for rights; rights protect us from criminals in government, a much more dangerous brand of criminal. Government is not expected to get every crook. Government is expected to only get those it can while playing by the Bill of Rights.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-06-2012 at 07:55 PM.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    These are not even the tip of the ice-berg. History is littered--littered!--with examples of prosecutions arising from every motive except putting away a bad guy.
    I agree. Wen Ho Lee is another. He is the Los Alamos scientist who was falsely accused of espionage. The FBI ruined him. He spent a year shackled and chained in prison before they let him go. The government tried to convict him even when they knew he was innocent.
    Last edited by griffin; 01-06-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Yeah,

    Now the issue will be how to get this illegal "law" tossed along with all the dim-witted so called servants of the people who voted it in. My God, don't these forking ice-holes ever look at the Constitution? Hell I'd be happy if any of them could remember the bill of rights! I guess as long as the elites are protected to hell with the peasants?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyieZ...eature=related
    My congress critter (John Conyers) was probably there when the bill of rights was signed.

    Truthfully the problem isn't the people who were elected, it is the people that elected them. In my area (read full of dumbocrats) they reelect people like Conyers who have been in office for over half a century and have a family full of criminals. People just do not "get it".

    Look at the group of people on the MI gun forums, many are doing cartwheels because if it gets signed into law we will have lost guns rights with SB 760-762 and these are the exact same people that vote for the knuckle heads that pass laws like this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    +1000

    From a law enforcement point of view, this is a good thing. Having the ability to arrest anyone for suspected terrorism would be great.....for law enforcement.

    However, the mere protest against big government could land you in a federal prison...indefinitely....if a military judge deems that to be an act of terrorism.

    The entire bill is a joke. For your next assignment, look up beastiality and the NDAA. There is a portion of this bill that repeals a previous law prohibiting sodomy and beastiality among military personnel. Kind of makes you wonder.......
    They have to do that. They have now made it OK for ****'s to be in the military so if they don't make these acts OK many more idiots will cry about them not being able to ..... well you get the idea.

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