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Thread: People carrying in places they can't

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    People carrying in places they can't

    This is kind of a rant, but I would like to hear others input. I'm sure many of you have heard about the Marine who was arrested for carrying in NYC on an Indiana permit. And the medical student who did the same but she was from Tennessee. Another story I heard about, but some of you may have not, was a guy who was traveling through NJ (case was settled a while ago) who thought his permit was valid in NJ. When he got stopped by a cop and the cop found out the guy had a gun he was arrested. All these people think they have reciprocity when they don't. And honestly this is bugging me. How do you not know your permit is recognized in a state like NY or NJ?

    I could see a situation where lets say Michigan and Nevada have a reciprocity agree. And for whatever reason the NV AG terminates the agreement on September 1st. A Michigan resident, having looked up the reciprocity, goes to NV on the 2nd not knowing that his permit is no longer valid. Or if they can show proof that through a valid source they had great reason to believe they had reciprocity. In those situation sure, let 'em off. And I do think that people should be allowed to carry in every state, as long as they lawfully own the gun and are not breaking any laws, no permit necessary.

    What do you guys think about these people carrying in states where their permit is clearly not recognized?

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/ma...ating-gun-law/

    http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/te...ng-of-the-sort
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    I think anyone who thinks they can lawfully carry in two of the most anti gun states in the country is very foolish. What happened to them is ********, unconstitutional, and just plain wrong. Nevertheless, the law is the law and they acted foolishly by not reviewing the carry laws of those states.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    I think anyone who thinks they can lawfully carry in two of the most anti gun states in the country is very foolish. What happened to them is ********, unconstitutional, and just plain wrong. Nevertheless, the law is the law and they acted foolishly by not reviewing the carry laws of those states.


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    having the law on your side makes no difference in progressive states. They have moved beyond the law.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I honestly think that ALL crimes should have a victim. If there is no one hurt in any way then I don't think a crime has been committed. So, to answer your question I think that they should have EVERY RIGHT to carry a gun ANYWHERE.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Part of being a LAC is doing your best to know and follow the laws. I was pretty shocked that those people were so unaware of the draconian anti-2A laws in NY, NJ, etc.

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    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    As has been said, it's hard to believe any gun owner is not aware of the terrible situation in those anti-rights cess pools. It's not like Bloomers keeps his anti-rights agenda a secret. The price of admission is too steep for me to go to NY.

    The NRA is trumpeting their National Permission nonsense as a fix to this situation.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Canuck View Post
    As has been said, it's hard to believe any gun owner is not aware of the terrible situation in those anti-rights cess pools. It's not like Bloomers keeps his anti-rights agenda a secret. The price of admission is too steep for me to go to NY.

    The NRA is trumpeting their National Permission nonsense as a fix to this situation.
    Look at this forum for an example. How many questions about one state vs another do we have on here? We have lawyers who help to translate thousands of legal speak laws into common for us and we still have questions. Heck how many police dont know their own laws.

    The only way to stop this nonsense is just to go back to the 2nd and follow that. We have due process to "stop felons and the like" from possessing firearms but those darn criminals just don't listen. Private property owners still have the rights to allow who they want on their property but state and govt. would not have that option.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Canuck View Post
    As has been said, it's hard to believe any gun owner is not aware of the terrible situation in those anti-rights cess pools. It's not like Bloomers keeps his anti-rights agenda a secret. The price of admission is too steep for me to go to NY.

    The NRA is trumpeting their National Permission nonsense as a fix to this situation.
    I don't think the NRA sees it as the fix, but rather another movement in the right direction. History, especially political issues history, tends to kind of be on a pendulum. Starting in the 20s the Feds got involved with firearm restriction. It took them 40 some years to push through the '68 NFA with a backdrop of national unrest and several high profile assasinations. It only took another 18 to pass the '86 restrictions on full auto weapons. Only 8 more for the AWB. ..

    The pro-2A/constitutional community didn't start to make any significant headway against the accelerating restrictions until FL passed their CC law in '87. The AWB was passed in the midst of a surging pro-2A and that 10 year experiment was shown to be totally ineffective in meeting any of the purported goals of the legislations and congress at this point seems disinclined to face the political problems of trying to pass another. Since 87 we have seen an acceleration of 2A rights. A majority of states are shall issue. My MO CCW allows me to carry in 38 states at the moment. Even though several states have very restrictive may issue laws, 49 states do have at least some citizen CC allowed. One thing this expanding CC has shown many once anti's in the public is that the LEO/gov't/special interest predictions of rivers of blood in the street have never come to pass. Over the last 20 years public opinion has shifted to where a majority support civilian ownership and carry of self-defense firearms. That is HUGE.

    I think the NRA sees national CC reciprocity as the next logical step in clawing back our 2A rights. Certainly there are some who would stop there, however, for those of us who point to "shall not be infringed" it is another important incremental step. The Bloombergs of the world go back to their tired bag of blood running in the street slogans to fight it, howeveer, can you imagine if it passes. Suddenly, people in NY, NJ, MD, CA, etc see that hey, these people aren't causing any crimes and actually, if anything, they are making our cities safer - hey, legislatures, how come we don't have the rights to carry that the tourist from MO has? That it how it has rolled across much of the country in the last 24 years since FL started in the right direction.

    We didn't get massive 2A infringement in a day, or month, or year. It took the Feds nearly 70 years to get to the AWB. There is no way that we are going to get those rights back in another year or two either. Politics, public opinion and gov't just doesn't work that way or that quickly. We are winning. The best was to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory is to object to everything we don't think goes far enough. Public opinion is behind us currently. If we get too far ahead of it, we will lose and history tells us that congress will overreach in the other direction.

    So fix? No. Another incremental move in the right direction to regain the rights we allowed to be infringed. Absolutely.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I don't think the NRA sees it as the fix, but rather another movement in the right direction. History, especially political issues history, tends to kind of be on a pendulum. Starting in the 20s the Feds got involved with firearm restriction. It took them 40 some years to push through the '68 NFA with a backdrop of national unrest and several high profile assasinations. It only took another 18 to pass the '86 restrictions on full auto weapons. Only 8 more for the AWB. ..

    The pro-2A/constitutional community didn't start to make any significant headway against the accelerating restrictions until FL passed their CC law in '87. The AWB was passed in the midst of a surging pro-2A and that 10 year experiment was shown to be totally ineffective in meeting any of the purported goals of the legislations and congress at this point seems disinclined to face the political problems of trying to pass another. Since 87 we have seen an acceleration of 2A rights. A majority of states are shall issue. My MO CCW allows me to carry in 38 states at the moment. Even though several states have very restrictive may issue laws, 49 states do have at least some citizen CC allowed. One thing this expanding CC has shown many once anti's in the public is that the LEO/gov't/special interest predictions of rivers of blood in the street have never come to pass. Over the last 20 years public opinion has shifted to where a majority support civilian ownership and carry of self-defense firearms. That is HUGE.

    I think the NRA sees national CC reciprocity as the next logical step in clawing back our 2A rights. Certainly there are some who would stop there, however, for those of us who point to "shall not be infringed" it is another important incremental step. The Bloombergs of the world go back to their tired bag of blood running in the street slogans to fight it, howeveer, can you imagine if it passes. Suddenly, people in NY, NJ, MD, CA, etc see that hey, these people aren't causing any crimes and actually, if anything, they are making our cities safer - hey, legislatures, how come we don't have the rights to carry that the tourist from MO has? That it how it has rolled across much of the country in the last 24 years since FL started in the right direction.

    We didn't get massive 2A infringement in a day, or month, or year. It took the Feds nearly 70 years to get to the AWB. There is no way that we are going to get those rights back in another year or two either. Politics, public opinion and gov't just doesn't work that way or that quickly. We are winning. The best was to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory is to object to everything we don't think goes far enough. Public opinion is behind us currently. If we get too far ahead of it, we will lose and history tells us that congress will overreach in the other direction.

    So fix? No. Another incremental move in the right direction to regain the rights we allowed to be infringed. Absolutely.

    Damn, well said!
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  10. #10
    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    You may not see them viewing it as a fix, but that doesnt mean they aren't selling it that way. At least, that's how it's presented on Cam and Co. To be fair, perhaps that isn't their position, but Cam presents as such. Either way, When they start to push constitutional carry, I'll change my opinion of them.
    Last edited by John Canuck; 01-08-2012 at 12:25 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Canuck View Post
    No thanks. I see no incremental movement towards the restoration of any rights by the NRA.
    Because you are choosing not to see it. The NRA may not be the ideal gun rights advocacy group for everyone, but neither are they the enemy.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    My comments above were not about the NRA per se, but rather about national reciprocity and any perception about it being a fix. One doesn't have to agree with the entirety of the organization or all of its current agenda to see that at least some things it supports are positive. There is no firearm organization I agree with 100% of the time, however, I stand by what I said above as to this issue and my opinion as to incremental gains being the reality of regaining our righhts. In the last few years we have had Heller and McDonald in our favor. WI has now left the perennially corrupt Peoples Republic of Chicago once the Great State of IL as the sole complete holdout as to citizen 2A rights. Shall issue has expanded. New castle doctrine states have been added and other states have strengthened ciitizen self-defense protections. Naming just a few recent matterrs....

    The exercise of citizen 2A rights has changed profoundly in the last 20 years since I was first a young man just out of college. Can you imagine if next year I could conceal carry in 49 states? Maybe young people fresh out of college today will be sitting on OCDO in 20 years writing abouut how amazing it is that now they can carry OC or CC without any gov't papers/permission in all 49 states and even while driving on the Sky Bridge ByPass the free states built to avoid the IL Federal Penal Colony fka the People's Republik of Chicago

  13. #13
    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Because you are choosing not to see it. The NRA may not be the ideal gun rights advocacy group for everyone, but neither are they the enemy.
    You choose to see it any way you want.

  14. #14
    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    snip
    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    My comments above were not about the NRA per se, but rather about national reciprocity and any perception about it being a fix.
    My apologies. I thought your comments above were about the NRA in itself when you said:

    snip [QUOTE=deepdiver;1679109]I don't think the NRA sees it as the fix, but rather another movement in the right direction.[quote]

    Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. I view it as a step in the wrong direction, and since it will never be signed into law, I guess I can leave it to the NRA members to decide what to think about it.

    Back on topic, I still find it difficult to believe that any gun owner is unaware that NY is an anti-rights zone. Are the voters in NY watching?

  15. #15
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Canuck View Post
    You may not see them viewing it as a fix, but that doesnt mean they aren't selling it that way. At least, that's how it's presented on Cam and Co. To be fair, perhaps that isn't their position, but Cam presents as such. Either way, When they start to push constitutional carry, I'll change my opinion of them.
    All in time my friend.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=John Canuck;1679472]snip

    My apologies. I thought your comments above were about the NRA in itself when you said:

    snip [QUOTE=deepdiver;1679109]I don't think the NRA sees it as the fix, but rather another movement in the right direction.

    Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. I view it as a step in the wrong direction, and since it will never be signed into law, I guess I can leave it to the NRA members to decide what to think about it.

    Back on topic, I still find it difficult to believe that any gun owner is unaware that NY is an anti-rights zone. Are the voters in NY watching?
    No apology necessary. I failed to make a proper segue from a brief comment about the organization to what I perceived as your broader issue with national reciprocity (a matter it took me several months of thought to sort out my opinion about). My apologies for not being more clear.

    I certainly agree that it is almost unbelievable, especially in this era of easy internet access for gun law information, that people are not aware that IL, NY, NJ, MD, CA, DC, HI have extremely restrictive gun laws. Although I do remember that in one of the three recent cases in NY I read that the carrier had found bad information online. But wow, if true, the site that would say he could carry CC in NYC has to be run by the Brady Bunch it is so obviously wrong to anyone in the 2A community.

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