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Bar patron kills armed robber, Chesapeake VA

ChinChin

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May 17, 2007
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683
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Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
Since their cohort was killed as a direct result of this crime, can the surviving robbers be charged with murder?

TFred

Not provided as a cite to authority, just what one college professor (Prof. Don Grubbs - Criminal procedures 101) told us in class.

If Myself, Tom & Steve go to knock over a 7-11, and in the process of steeling cash the clerk pulls out a revolver and kills Tom and Steve, then I **could be** charged with the homicide of Tom and Steve, not the 7-11 clerk as my actions led to the deaths of tom and Steve.

he said some officers and lawyers will unofficially refer to it as "4th Degree Murder."

Again: Not purporting this as accurate, just what I recall ol' Grubbs telling us. Check with User for the official poop.
 

Steeler-gal

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peter nap

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It really is terribly written but I'm glad the patrons fought back.


Who's Sonny? :confused:

If I were so inclined as to rob someplace, it wouldn't be a Bar.
If it were a little further East, the bar patrons might have Bar-B-Q ed them by the time the cops got there.:uhoh:
 

TFred

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Police won't say if the person who shot Davis could possibly face charges.
I'll go out on a limb and say this: If the patron who shot the robber faces charges, you better believe that some sort of Castle Doctrine will pass this year. I know the two are not completely related, but if the patron is charged, the outrage will be swift and furious.

Unless they can prove to the masses that he acted inappropriately...

TFred
 

Red Dawg

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Eastern VA, with too many people
It's not mentioned, and now, hopefully is OBE, but the issue of alcohol in bloodstream. There is not numerical value associated with the carry of a handgun other than being under the influence. In my mind that leaves it up to the discretion of the officer arresting, or investigating. That is a law that needs fixing. Good or bad, if you shoot someone while/after consuming adult beverages, there should be a value to be over/under. We, at least most of us agree, that it is in bad form to drink while open carrying at dinner/a grill, in public in general. However, I think there needs to be a basic point of reference so LEOs don't arrest you for being under the influence after the first sip, of the first beer, because they saw you do it...
 

CoDash

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Virginia Beach
It's not mentioned, and now, hopefully is OBE, but the issue of alcohol in bloodstream. There is not numerical value associated with the carry of a handgun other than being under the influence. In my mind that leaves it up to the discretion of the officer arresting, or investigating. That is a law that needs fixing. Good or bad, if you shoot someone while/after consuming adult beverages, there should be a value to be over/under. We, at least most of us agree, that it is in bad form to drink while open carrying at dinner/a grill, in public in general. However, I think there needs to be a basic point of reference so LEOs don't arrest you for being under the influence after the first sip, of the first beer, because they saw you do it...

You bring up a good point Dawg. I am new to this forum, but wanted to ask this question. I know that people probably should not be drinking while OC'ing, but what is the limit? Is it like a DUI thing? 0.08 BAC? Is it legal to be sitting in the bar, OC'ing drinking a beer?

A little off topic, but speaking of DUI, I read somewhere that there is a 3 year period before you can apply for a CCW after being convicted of a DUI. Is this true? Is there any circumstances that would allow someone to possess a Conceled Weapons Permit in Virginia Beach in less than the 3 year period after being convicted?

I'm not sure if this is accurate but, I heard some more details about this story this morning. The Victim was the bouncer, he went back out to his car to retrieve his gun after the BG's stormed in. The patrons were throwing pool cues at the BGs and the bouncer antagonized the BG to shoot him, which he did in the stomach. The bounce returning fire, killing the suspect. The bouncer had some internal organ damage, but is recovering.

I'm really glad that the bouncer had time to retrieve his gun. And I'm glad to hear that no INNOCENT people were killed.
 

Jonesy

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Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Since their cohort was killed as a direct result of this crime, can the surviving robbers be charged with murder?

TFred

Based on my research of Virginia caselaw, the answer is the robbers cannot be charged with murder. Here is the cite and some key excerpts: Wooden v. Com., 284 S.E.2d 811, 222 Va. 758 (Va., 1981)

In this appeal, the question for our determination is whether under Virginia's felony-murder statute, Code § 18.2-32, 1 one of the perpetrators of an armed robbery may be convicted of felony-murder for the killing of a co-felon by a resisting victim of the robbery.

[222 Va. 760] Patricia Ann Wooden pleaded not guilty to indictments charging her with the felony-murders of Walter Wallace Randolph, Jr. and Richard Earl Anthony. Randolph, the victim of a robbery in which Wooden participated, was killed during the robbery. Before his death, Randolph killed Anthony, one of the robbers. In her appeal, Wooden challenges only her conviction for the felony-murder of Anthony, her co-felon.

We begin our analysis of the applicable law with the observation that although felony-murder is a statutory offense, it includes the elements of common-law murder. When the legislature enacted § 18.2-32 it defined the conduct it sought to punish as nothing more than "[m]urder" in the commission of one of certain other enumerated felonies. Since murder is not elsewhere defined in the Code, 3 murder for purposes of the felony-murder statute is common-law murder coupled with the contemporaneous commission or attempted commission of one of the listed felonies.

At common law, a homicide is not murder unless done with malice. "Malice aforethought is the grand criterion which distinguishes murder from other killings." McWhirt's Case, 44 Va. (3 Gratt.) 594, 605 (1846). "The test of murder is malice. Every malicious killing is murder either in the first or second degree--the former if deliberate and premeditated, and the latter if not." Jacobs v. Commonwealth, 132 Va. 681, 686, 111 S.E. 90, 92 (1922), quoted with approval in Perkins v. Commonwealth, 215 Va. 69, 73, 205 S.E.2d 385, 387 (1974). With Code § 18.2-32, the legislature made killing with malice while committing or attempting to commit one of certain other specified felonies a form of first-degree murder. Neither premeditation nor an intent to kill is an element of felony-murder, but malice is. See Robertson v. Commonwealth, 1 Va.Dec. 851, 856, 20 S.E. 362, 364 (1894).

"Malice inheres in the doing of a wrongful act intentionally or without just cause or excuse, or as a result of ill will ...." Dawkins v. Commonwealth, 186 Va. 55, 61, 41 S.E.2d 500, 503 (1947). Where a person maliciously engages in criminal activity, such as robbery, and homicide of the victim results, the malice inherent in the robbery provides the malice prerequisite to a finding that the homicide was murder. And, all of the criminal participants in the initial felony may be found guilty of the felony-murder of the victim so long as the homicide was within the res gestae of the initial felony. Haskell v. Commonwealth, 218 Va. 1033, 243 S.E.2d 477 (1978).

Since malice is an element of Va.Code § 18.2-32 felony-murder, the Commonwealth's position would require the elimination of proof of malice as a prerequisite to conviction under our felony-murder statute. If the statute is to be so amended, this result should be accomplished by legislative action rather than by judicial fiat.

For the foregoing reasons, we hold that under § 18.2-32, a criminal participant in a felony may not be convicted of the felony-murder of a co-felon killed by the victim of the initial felony. Accordingly, we will reverse the judgment of the trial court convicting Wooden of the felony-murder of her co-felon, Anthony, and dismiss the indictment.

Reversed and dismissed.
 

wylde007

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Unless the arrested the HERO patron and tested him then any reference to such would be pure speculation and inadmissible in court.

The law is very subjective, but would require substantive evidence to convict. "He seemed drunk at the time" wouldn't meet the criteria unless corroborated by some sort of quantitative measurement.
 

peter nap

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Based on my research of Virginia caselaw, the answer is the robbers cannot be charged with murder. Here is the cite and some key excerpts: Wooden v. Com., 284 S.E.2d 811, 222 Va. 758 (Va., 1981)

In this appeal, the question for our determination is whether under Virginia's felony-murder statute, Code § 18.2-32, 1 one of the perpetrators of an armed robbery may be convicted of felony-murder for the killing of a co-felon by a resisting victim of the robbery.

[222 Va. 760] Patricia Ann Wooden pleaded not guilty to indictments charging her with the felony-murders of Walter Wallace Randolph, Jr. and Richard Earl Anthony. Randolph, the victim of a robbery in which Wooden participated, was killed during the robbery. Before his death, Randolph killed Anthony, one of the robbers. In her appeal, Wooden challenges only her conviction for the felony-murder of Anthony, her co-felon.

We begin our analysis of the applicable law with the observation that although felony-murder is a statutory offense, it includes the elements of common-law murder. When the legislature enacted § 18.2-32 it defined the conduct it sought to punish as nothing more than "[m]urder" in the commission of one of certain other enumerated felonies. Since murder is not elsewhere defined in the Code, 3 murder for purposes of the felony-murder statute is common-law murder coupled with the contemporaneous commission or attempted commission of one of the listed felonies.

At common law, a homicide is not murder unless done with malice. "Malice aforethought is the grand criterion which distinguishes murder from other killings." McWhirt's Case, 44 Va. (3 Gratt.) 594, 605 (1846). "The test of murder is malice. Every malicious killing is murder either in the first or second degree--the former if deliberate and premeditated, and the latter if not." Jacobs v. Commonwealth, 132 Va. 681, 686, 111 S.E. 90, 92 (1922), quoted with approval in Perkins v. Commonwealth, 215 Va. 69, 73, 205 S.E.2d 385, 387 (1974). With Code § 18.2-32, the legislature made killing with malice while committing or attempting to commit one of certain other specified felonies a form of first-degree murder. Neither premeditation nor an intent to kill is an element of felony-murder, but malice is. See Robertson v. Commonwealth, 1 Va.Dec. 851, 856, 20 S.E. 362, 364 (1894).

"Malice inheres in the doing of a wrongful act intentionally or without just cause or excuse, or as a result of ill will ...." Dawkins v. Commonwealth, 186 Va. 55, 61, 41 S.E.2d 500, 503 (1947). Where a person maliciously engages in criminal activity, such as robbery, and homicide of the victim results, the malice inherent in the robbery provides the malice prerequisite to a finding that the homicide was murder. And, all of the criminal participants in the initial felony may be found guilty of the felony-murder of the victim so long as the homicide was within the res gestae of the initial felony. Haskell v. Commonwealth, 218 Va. 1033, 243 S.E.2d 477 (1978).

Since malice is an element of Va.Code § 18.2-32 felony-murder, the Commonwealth's position would require the elimination of proof of malice as a prerequisite to conviction under our felony-murder statute. If the statute is to be so amended, this result should be accomplished by legislative action rather than by judicial fiat.

For the foregoing reasons, we hold that under § 18.2-32, a criminal participant in a felony may not be convicted of the felony-murder of a co-felon killed by the victim of the initial felony. Accordingly, we will reverse the judgment of the trial court convicting Wooden of the felony-murder of her co-felon, Anthony, and dismiss the indictment.

Reversed and dismissed.

I thought the trigger man law had passed which would have altered this cite, but apparently it was killed on a 9-6 vote in committee.
So much for my memory.
 
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wylde007

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I was not aware that there was a difference. Now, if a "victim" had been killed, even by a bystander trying to prevent harm (good samaritan) then the felon would get a murder charge?

Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of, and if so, I sheepishly withdraw any erroneous comments...
 

peter nap

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I was not aware that there was a difference. Now, if a "victim" had been killed, even by a bystander trying to prevent harm (good samaritan) then the felon would get a murder charge?

Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of, and if so, I sheepishly withdraw any erroneous comments...

It's a dead bill Wylde, so it's not worth looking up. It's also a long way from Rural Affairs legislation so I didn't pay much attention to it but as I recall, it would make anyone whose actions were unlawful and directly caused the death of another, eligable for the death penalty even though they didn't kill him/her themselves.

Something along those lines.
 

Jonesy

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I was not aware that there was a difference. Now, if a "victim" had been killed, even by a bystander trying to prevent harm (good samaritan) then the felon would get a murder charge?

Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of, and if so, I sheepishly withdraw any erroneous comments...

Still no murder, no malice on the part of felon, and the statute (by incorporating common law murder) requires malice. Same is true if police come in and shoot store owner by mistake.
 
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Jonesy

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Alexandria, Virginia, USA
As explained in the Wooden case I cited above, Florida enacted a felony murder statute without a malice requirement, so they achieve a different result, namely second degree murder charges on the same facts.
 
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mk4

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VA
I thought the trigger man law had passed which would have altered this cite, but apparently it was killed on a 9-6 vote in committee.
So much for my memory.

is the prefiled bill below the same as the one previously killed?

=====

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+sum+SB58

SB 58 Triggerman rule; redefinition.
Mark D. Obenshain

Summary as introduced:
Criminal law; redefinition of the triggerman rule. Redefines the "triggerman rule," which currently provides that only the actual perpetrator of a capital murder is eligible for the death penalty and that accessories and principals in the second degree can be punished only as if guilty of first degree murder. This bill allows principals in the second degree and accessories before the fact to be charged as principals in the first degree in the cases of murder for hire, murder involving a continuing criminal enterprise, and terrorism. This bill allows, in all other cases of capital murder, a principal in the second degree to be tried as a principal in the first degree if he had the same intent to kill as the principal in the first degree. The bill allows an accessory before the fact to be tried as a principal in the first degree if he ordered or directed the willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+ful+SB58

=====
 

peter nap

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is the prefiled bill below the same as the one previously killed?

=====

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+sum+SB58

SB 58 Triggerman rule; redefinition.
Mark D. Obenshain

Summary as introduced:
Criminal law; redefinition of the triggerman rule. Redefines the "triggerman rule," which currently provides that only the actual perpetrator of a capital murder is eligible for the death penalty and that accessories and principals in the second degree can be punished only as if guilty of first degree murder. This bill allows principals in the second degree and accessories before the fact to be charged as principals in the first degree in the cases of murder for hire, murder involving a continuing criminal enterprise, and terrorism. This bill allows, in all other cases of capital murder, a principal in the second degree to be tried as a principal in the first degree if he had the same intent to kill as the principal in the first degree. The bill allows an accessory before the fact to be tried as a principal in the first degree if he ordered or directed the willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+ful+SB58

=====

Yep, looks like it!
 

BillHoo

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Nov 23, 2010
Messages
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Vienna, VA
Too bad that they couldn't have dropped all three of them.

Message to Bad Guys: "We have guns, too. And, we are everywhere."
Did I read the story right? The robber survived? PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN TO DOUBLE-TAP!!!!

.....OK. I got the details. Robber is dead. A patron is recoverying from gunshot wound.

still....

PEOPLE GOTTA LEARN TO DOUBLE TAP!!!!
 
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