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Thread: Castle Doctrine expands rights of citizens to defend themselves. Lakeland Times

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Castle Doctrine expands rights of citizens to defend themselves. Lakeland Times

    http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.as...rticleID=14486

    Excellent analysis!

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Moore, LT - Excerpt
    As Castle Doctrine laws have spread around the country this past decade, critics have tried to marshall their arguments to stop it, to little avail. Prominent among them are trial lawyers and district attorneys, and in 2007, with funding from the Joyce Foundation, they convened a symposium of prosecution, law enforcement, government, public health, and academic experts to set out their arguments.

    Steven Jansen and Elaine Nugent-Borakove summarized the critiques in a follow-up paper.

    [ ... ]

    What's more, they continued, certain provisions - also included in the Wisconsin law - actually put officers in real harm's way out on the streets. Of particular concern, they asserted, was officer safety during 'no-knock' warrants, where police officers can enter without identifying themselves as law enforcement.

    The expanded laws allow those inside to shoot the officers, they contended.

    "Officers can enter a home without announcing their presence only if they have a particular concern, articulated to the court issuing the warrant," they wrote. "Generally 'no-knock' warrants issue when there is a fear that suspects will destroy evidence or there is probable cause that the occupants may have access to weapons."

    Because the expanded laws presume that breaking and entering justifies a deadly response, and harming a police officer is an exception only if the officer has been identified as such, officers may be put into an untenable position, they wrote.

    [ ... ]

    Supporters

    Supporters are diverse, however, and include Democrats as well as Republicans, and some prominent law enforcement officials, such as Milwaukee County sheriff David Clarke.
    Better a thousand guilty go free than one innocent die in no-knock warrant service. The contrary is the tyrant's, "You may beat the rap but you cannot beat the ride."

  2. #2
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    It's a pretty good article, but Richard Moore, the author, is writing fiction (highlighted in red) when he reports that the memo written by Legislative Council senior staff attorney Jessica Karls-Ruplinger states,
    Then, too, the law enlarges the boundaries of deadly self-defense to areas outside the home, Karls-Ruplinger wrote. That includes your car or your business, and, what's more, the use of force can be used to protect property, not only life.
    ....
    "Once you reasonably fear attack or your actions are covered by the 'presumption of reasonableness,'
    you can legally use deadly force anywhere that you have a right to be," she stated.
    She doesn't write either one of those things highlighted in red. His quotes are a lie.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Thanks for the link URL to the memo.

    I read your first instance as obviously his, RM's, conclusion based on what she wrote.

    And now I'm reading the LC memo.

    ETA: The word "reasonableness" does not occur in your cited memo, http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lc/public...PDFs/ab069.pdf "Memo published: November 3, 2011 Contact: Jessica Karls-Ruplinger, Senior Staff Attorney (266-2230)"

    Out of respect for RM I must suspect the quotation is from some other document. I'll ask him.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-07-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Thanks for the link URL to the memo.

    I read your first instance as obviously his, RM's, conclusion based on what she wrote.

    And now I'm reading the LC memo.

    ETA: The word "reasonableness" does not occur in your cited memo, http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lc/public...PDFs/ab069.pdf "Memo published: November 3, 2011 Contact: Jessica Karls-Ruplinger, Senior Staff Attorney (266-2230)"

    Out of respect for RM I must suspect the quotation is from some other document. I'll ask him.
    Sorry I got the document for the wrong date. Here is the correct one that he actually refers to in his article.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Sorry I got the document for the wrong date. Here is the correct one that he actually refers to in his article.
    You are again correct that that phrase does not occur in that linked document.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-07-2012 at 08:48 AM.

  6. #6
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    The Steven Jansen and Elaine Nugent-Borakove 'Expansions to the Castle Doctrine: Impl

    The Steven Jansen and Elaine Nugent-Borakove 'Expansions to the Castle Doctrine: Implications for Policy and Practice,' National District Attorneys Association symposium funded by the Joyce Foundation

    http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Castle%20Doctrine.pdf 24 pages 5 MB

  7. #7
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    When did the press start printing the truth?

    There bias is enough to make a reasonable person ill. Thats it, if their in a suit, carrying a briefcase, or wearing a badge, I will not get involved. When the police who put their ass on the line, and not behind a desk, stand up and say" hell ya I'd want someone to help if I was in danger", I'm not going to be liable. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I realize that law enforcement can be a hair-raising (or pulling) profession, though it rarely makes the top 10 most dangerous (see my blog).

    But I worry about those street criminals who are smart enough to yell "POLICE!" as they're committing a home invasion. It's already happened. It happened in IN within a couple weeks after their SC made that dumbass decision saying that police don't need a warrant to enter homes. [BTW, has that been stricken down yet?]
    Here's a "DEA" home invasion in WA just a couple days ago.
    That problem (using people's trust to harm them) is one of the reasons impersonating an officer is a crime.

    Seems Walker was the one confusing Castle Doctrine with Stand Your Ground:
    I support citizens' rights to protect themselves in their own homes and anywhere they have a legal right to be, by adopting a strong Castle Doctrine law," Walker said.
    ...
    Walker did indeed sign the still controversial bill into law.
    ...
    Wisconsin became the 30th state to adopt a Castle Doctrine... starting with Florida in 2005.
    Whatinell is controversial about being able to defend yourself in your own home?!?!?!?
    (Let alone not exactly breaking new ground.)
    The Senate passed it 26-7, the Assembly 71-24; "controversial" my left gonad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce Fdn.
    [SYG & Castle] could have significant implications for public safety and the justice system's ability to hold people accountable for violent acts.
    Acting in self-defense isn't the sort of violence you should be concerned about.
    Try stopping the initial, criminal, acts of violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by JF
    there is no research to bear out the notion that arming victims deters attackers
    Except that FBI report... Violent Encounters, where federal felons admitted they avoid people & places they think might be armed. And how about More Guns Less Crime? And Kennesaw, GA (the postponed Waffle House robbery)?

    The JF also tries to conflate the rules governing actions of LEO on the job with the laws governing every citizen w/r/t the use of force in self-defense.
    created a double standard between law enforcement and citizens
    a) there's long been a double standard
    b) aren't LEO citizens too? (or is this an example of a?)
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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