KBCraig
Regular Member
I've lost track of who is imitating whom, these days.
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"DEA" raids wrong Marysville home
- Thread starter Metalhead47
- Start date
bmg50cal
Regular Member
Never hurts to ask the landlord.
The Door Jam Armor isn't of much use if an unauthorized entrant to one's dwelling has used a bump key to gain entry; for those concerned there is the Lock Jaw
http://lockjawsecurity.com/
Then there are these...
http://www.theultimatelock.com/ultimate-lock-residential/
http://www.theultimatelock.com/ultimate-lock-commercial/
[video=youtube;5I81hAe5gRM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I81hAe5gRM[/video]
More videos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvmUapsyfE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtEpTxr__Qk
The criminals in this case were posing as cops doing a very controversial thing that has resulted in many mistakes in the past. It was an easy reach.
This is a very scary reality. We've heard of women being pulled over and raped by fake cops, yet people are still getting in trouble if they call 911 to ask if the person pulling them over is a real cop, or if they drive with their hazard lights on for a little while to get into a lit public area to pull over.
I remember reading about a woman about twenty years ago that was sleeping in her car while travelling. She was legally armed and the gun was on the floorboard. Someone saw it and called the cops. They showed up and started beating on the window to wake her up. She woke up startled, reaching for the firearm out of PROPER instinct. She was shot dead.
We cannot possible relate all the tales of cops who don't plan properly or otherwise use EXTREMELY bad judgment, yet the innocent lives they have taken are somehow justified as collateral damage to the overall protecting the peace of society.
ManInBlack
Regular Member
Oh, as opposed to the armed thugs who happen to be "employed" as DEA agents, who storm private homes and sometimes kill the occupants?
Shoot first, shoot fast, shoot straight.
OC for ME
Regular Member
The Indiana Supreme Court disagrees with self defense on these no-knocks and 'mistakes'. No amount of injustice is worth the almost guaranteed loss of life. Let the courts fix it for you later.
Vitaeus
Regular Member
That is the issue, when Law Enforcement is using the same tactics as the bad guys, you lose no matter what you do. Oh, using the Illinois Supreme Court as your basis for anything, is likely to get you treated like chattel at best. Washington State has a slightly different theory on the meaning of the Constitutions, State and Federal.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
After all the reasonable and thoughtful responses, do you still think this way Decklin?
As to your caviler admission that "Yes, mistakes happen." Well. when mistakes happen frequently enough it becomes a system in injustice rather than justice. When standard practices and policies unnecessarily increase the chance for collateral damage, then it becomes a system of injustice.
Metalhead47
Regular Member
Yes. In this particular instance, the thugs were the former.
Freedom First
Regular Member
DEA or not, someone's coming through the door...
This thread has me thinking about ways to legally address this situation in both a passive and active manner.
Passive measures prior to entry:
Build up doors to resist the boot or entry device
Buys time to ID and assess the intruder.
Motion sensors (doorbell sound) covering the outside of all entryways into your home
Ensures that you know there are folks outside your door, night or day.
Cameras covering the area outside the doors
Allows ID of people prior to entry.
Posted signs declaring your intention to defend your home against intruders with lethal force?
Not sure about this one. Might be taken as a threat to the boys in black. Or maybe a challenge...
Active measures once they are in:
Booby traps
Trip wires, strobes, sirens, even smoke?
Hard cover locations in home
Sand filled walls (esp. lath and plaster) do stop pistol rounds and would possibly deflect 5.56N.
Planning
Having a family plan (or plans) in the event of home invasion.
One for thugs in droopy drawers, another for men in black.
Discuss?
Are you paranoid if they really are coming for you?
This thread has me thinking about ways to legally address this situation in both a passive and active manner.
Passive measures prior to entry:
Build up doors to resist the boot or entry device
Buys time to ID and assess the intruder.
Motion sensors (doorbell sound) covering the outside of all entryways into your home
Ensures that you know there are folks outside your door, night or day.
Cameras covering the area outside the doors
Allows ID of people prior to entry.
Posted signs declaring your intention to defend your home against intruders with lethal force?
Not sure about this one. Might be taken as a threat to the boys in black. Or maybe a challenge...
Active measures once they are in:
Booby traps
Trip wires, strobes, sirens, even smoke?
Hard cover locations in home
Sand filled walls (esp. lath and plaster) do stop pistol rounds and would possibly deflect 5.56N.
Planning
Having a family plan (or plans) in the event of home invasion.
One for thugs in droopy drawers, another for men in black.
Discuss?
Are you paranoid if they really are coming for you?
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
They can cut power and internet. They can jam wifi and cell signals. So all your electronic based ideas do have some weaknesses.
As to the sign, yes I think it would be used against you or cause the situation to start from an escalated point -- thereby increasing the risk to your life.
ManInBlack
Regular Member
For what it's worth, the SCOTUS has held (in John Bad Elk v. United States) that, "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed."
Also, the courts increasingly have lost their independence and more or less rubber stamp what their fellows in the government caste have already done. At a certain point, you will be just as likely to lose your life to the injustice system as to the initial intruders.
decklin
Regular Member
First, there was nothing cavalier about what I said. Mistakes do happen. Sometimes the no-knocks are justified. You all are very good at finding the entries that went wrong. Can you find the ones that went right? I'll bet that the numbers of successful/justified entries far out number the false/unjustified entries. People in general seem to just want to complain about stuff.
The cops are dealing with people who do not play by the rules. You all are aware of the types of people they have to deal with every day. It's because of some of these people that many of you choose to carry in the first place.
I know that when I was in Iraq my life and the lives of my soldiers were constantly put at risk because of civilians behind a desk making decisions when they had zero experience in our occupation. I can see the same thing happening here.
That being said, your responses have made me rethink/question my initial thought processes. I think in many ways I am still in a combat/military mindset. I forget that history has a tendency to repeat itself.
This conversation is one of the reasons why I am a member on this board. Regardless of who is right and wrong it gives me a different mindset/perspective to consider. I may not change your mind and chances are that you will definitely not change my mind but it gives me a different perspective to consider. As I am trying to get into a police department I think that speaking to you guys can help me to better serve the people in the future. If I make it into a department the last thing I would want to do is endanger a civilian or place them in a hardship.
Interestingly enough, this forum exists because of the sheer numbers of cops who insist on "dealing" with people are are playing by the rules.
ManInBlack
Regular Member
It's always just a statistic until it happens to you.
Some no-knocks may be justified, but I have seen far too many forceful raids for suspected narcotics violations, with predictably disastrous consequences. Quite simply, it is more "fun" for the police to kick doors, throw flashbangs, have weapons at the ready, etc., than it is to conduct a search in a civilized manner. And with all the fun toys the local police are now receiving from the military and other fed. gov. agencies, it is not surprising that they want to use them.
What you meant to say was people who are suspected or alleged to have violated rules. Rule violators are not necessarily the same as dangerous people...it's kind of like the difference between peace officers and law enforcement.
There is no draft for the police, or military, for that matter. They don't have to deal with anything they don't want to. If someone chooses to take the job of police officer, he is presumably being paid (often, very well) to assume some risks. If he cannot discharge his duties without being so scared of citizens that he feels it necessary to violate their rights, he should quit the force.
Yes, we carry to protect ourselves against those who seek to do us imminent bodily harm, not to [supposedly] protect society from those who choose to introduce non-approved chemicals into their own bloodstreams.
You mean like the civilians behind desks who sent you there in the first place? I agree.
Metalhead47
Regular Member
Decklin, I think you're missing the point that many of us here believe that no knock warrants are rarely, IF EVER justified in the first place, and are generally used to prosecute crimes that should not be crimes in the first place.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
decklin
Regular Member
Metal, I do understand. You all are speaking about the abuse of power. Just because you have the ability does not mean you have the right. I actually meant to put that in my post and just forgot.
Pyro01
Regular Member
I almost had a raid mistakingly conducted on my home, they had my address but the people they were going after lived right above us. The only reason they didn't raid my house that morning was because I had called a noise complaint in on the people upstairs. After they cleared the upstairs during the raid, the cops came down our back stairwell guns drawn and pointed at me when I opened the door they knocked on, and they asked me who I was. I told them I was the guy who called the noise complaint in.
The cops arrested everyone upstairs on marijuana possession suspicions, and when I had gone upstairs to take the dog out later that morning I was asked to confirm my address by the captain. He then told me they had the guy they were going after was said to live at my address, and he said the noise complaint is what saved me from getting raided. Most of the people arrested were back later that night except for one guy I think.
To top it all off, the doorbell rang one evening about two weeks later. I go upstairs and look outside the window and see a cop standing off to the side. So I go outside and shut the door behind me and he asks me if I was Jeremy, I told him I wasn't and they asked who else lived with me and I told them only my wife. I told them Jeremy lived upstairs and not downstairs. They said they just wanted to talk to him, but I didn't believe them because they were ready to grab someone when that door opened.
The cops arrested everyone upstairs on marijuana possession suspicions, and when I had gone upstairs to take the dog out later that morning I was asked to confirm my address by the captain. He then told me they had the guy they were going after was said to live at my address, and he said the noise complaint is what saved me from getting raided. Most of the people arrested were back later that night except for one guy I think.
To top it all off, the doorbell rang one evening about two weeks later. I go upstairs and look outside the window and see a cop standing off to the side. So I go outside and shut the door behind me and he asks me if I was Jeremy, I told him I wasn't and they asked who else lived with me and I told them only my wife. I told them Jeremy lived upstairs and not downstairs. They said they just wanted to talk to him, but I didn't believe them because they were ready to grab someone when that door opened.
golddigger14s
Activist Member
Here's a pretty impressive kit to reinforce your door to keep it from getting kicked in:
http://www.armorconcepts.com/Ultra-EZ-Armor-White?sc=2&category=2728
Watch the video the news station did. Kind of a "Get Jesse" type thing.
http://www.armorconcepts.com/Ultra-EZ-Armor-White?sc=2&category=2728
Watch the video the news station did. Kind of a "Get Jesse" type thing.
gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
I disagree. Under no circumstance is a 'no-knock' warrant justified. The government must follow the 4th Amendment. The search must be reasonable, it must have a warrant from a Judge, it must describe the place or person. The founders intended it to be a transparent process.
decklin
Regular Member
I must have missed something. Where does it say you have to anounce your presence? Police frequently do anounce themselves before making entry anyways. And a no-knock warrant is a warrant.