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Thread: Found Guilty in St. joseph

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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Found Guilty in St. joseph

    I was found guilty in municipal court this morning of trespass and disorderly conduct relating to my two encounters with SJPD at HyVee. One officer blatantly lied in court about the trespass directly affecting the judge's opinion. The judge also refused to allow me to question the officer's knowledge of the city and state laws as they pertain to the charges. I'm upset and sickened by the judgement made. While the fines are relatively low, I'm heavily considering an appeal. This will double my fines and require more money that I don't have. I represented myself this time thinking that there was sufficient evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was in the right. Should I appeal this, spend the money and fight for what is right? Or should I cut my losses, accept this as a frustrating failure and recognize that this cop will lie again in appeals? I'm so mad I'm sick to my stomach.
    Last edited by Reverend BCal; 01-11-2012 at 11:51 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    I was found guilty in municipal court this morning of trespass and disorderly conduct relating to my two encounters with SJPD at HyVee. One officer blatantly lied in court about the trespass directly affecting the judge's opinion. The judge also refused to allow me to question the officer's knowledge of the city and state laws as they pertain to the charges. I'm upset and sickened by the judgement made. While the fines are rellatively low, I'm heavily considering an appeal. This will double my fines and require more money that I don't have. I represented myself this time thinking that there was sufficient evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was in the right. Should I appeal this, spend the money and fight for what is right? Or should I cut my losses, accept this as a frustrating failure and recognize that this cop will lie again in appeals? I'm so mad I'm sick to my stomach.
    Does this relate to having an open carry firearm?
    "Charges" related?
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Yes, of course...

    This is in relation to previous posts about my harassment and subsequent arrest at HyVee for open carry.
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    Yes, of course...

    This is in relation to previous posts about my harassment and subsequent arrest at HyVee for open carry.
    Consider posting the original link. I remember the incident, but others might not.

    Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    If you think you have a strong case for appeal I would talk to your local 2nd amendment organization to see if they would be willing to start a fund. If your case could affect a large number of gun owners then I am sure others will donate.

    That being said, if you are not an attorney, I don't recommend that one defen themselves in court. You will almost always lose a he said/she said argument with a cop. (not criticism towards you, just general advice towards all)
    Last edited by thebigsd; 01-10-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    This is ridiculous. Doesn't surprise me in the least that it went this way though. COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing

    Personally I would have requested a public defender if you qualified for one. I don't think you can get one for an appeal, but I could be wrong. You could also try legal aid. I know there is a legal aid office in town.

    Sorry to hear the crappy news. Hit me up sometime and we can meet up for coffee at McDs or something.
    Last edited by G30Mike; 01-10-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    Yes, of course...

    This is in relation to previous posts about my harassment and subsequent arrest at HyVee for open carry.
    You wre arrested for open carry in a place where open carry is not prohibited?

    PM sent!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    As I understood it he wasn't arrested on any weapons violations. Here is the thread pertaining to the arrest.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...96#post1599896
    Last edited by G30Mike; 01-10-2012 at 07:42 PM.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    I represented myself this time thinking that there was sufficient evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was in the right.
    Was this in front of a jury, or simply a judge?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Regular Member NG19's Avatar
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    I would find a lawyer and appeal fight and make the city or pd pay for all legal fees and clean your record.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    I was found guilty in municipal court this morning of trespass and disorderly conduct relating to my two encounters with SJPD at HyVee. One officer blatantly lied in court about the trespass directly affecting the judge's opinion. The judge also refused to allow me to question the officer's knowledge of the city and state laws as they pertain to the charges. I'm upset and sickened by the judgement made. While the fines are rellatively low, I'm heavily considering an appeal. This will double my fines and require more money that I don't have. I represented myself this time thinking that there was sufficient evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was in the right. Should I appeal this, spend the money and fight for what is right? Or should I cut my losses, accept this as a frustrating failure and recognize that this cop will lie again in appeals? I'm so mad I'm sick to my stomach.
    I hate to say this... BUT NO MATTER WHAT, if you ever have to go to court... ALWAYS HAVE A LAWYER. Make a short story short, I went in for coustdy case with my son (who lives with me). The law basically explains that the supporting parent will pay about 24%. But after a year she was paying support, she taken me to court to have her payment reduced, even though her sallary only changed by 3%???? THey taken 1/3 of the support away, mainly because she had a lawyer and I didn't. Talk about UNFAIR.

    Sorry to hear that you experince that.... I PROMISE YOU... if you had a lawyer with you, it would have been a different story. My opinion, go an appeal it (with a lawyer).

    Keep this in mind... in any court of "the law". If you have not went through the school and earn a bar assication sticker... you will receive NO respect in court. So when you start to question and ask questions... they basically treat you as if you have no business to do so. Its the plain truth and it hurts. many lawyers will work out a payment with you.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    You said this was municipal court so you likely have an automatic appeal option to associate court but there are time limits to do that. And as said, you need an attorney. You need someone who knows the rules in your local court if you want a good chance of beating this.

    I appeared in municipal court on a minor matter that my then boss who was an attorney told me was no big deal and advised me that I didn't need an atty over. The judge threw the book at me and fined me the maximum, 3X what an atty would have cost, not because what I was accussed of was any big deal but in her words, "someone as articulate and well dressed as you should have known better". It wasn't even a criminal charge but an infraction (totally unrelated to firearms). A few years later when I had a corporation, a corporate atty and a personal atty, my atty told me that had I called him about that situation he could have got it dismissed easily and to NEVER go to any court, even for a minor traffic ticket without my atty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    You said this was municipal court so you likely have an automatic appeal option to associate court but there are time limits to do that. And as said, you need an attorney. You need someone who knows the rules in your local court if you want a good chance of beating this.

    I appeared in municipal court on a minor matter that my then boss who was an attorney told me was no big deal and advised me that I didn't need an atty over. The judge threw the book at me and fined me the maximum, 3X what an atty would have cost, not because what I was accussed of was any big deal but in her words, "someone as articulate and well dressed as you should have known better". It wasn't even a criminal charge but an infraction (totally unrelated to firearms). A few years later when I had a corporation, a corporate atty and a personal atty, my atty told me that had I called him about that situation he could have got it dismissed easily and to NEVER go to any court, even for a minor traffic ticket without my atty.
    Sad isn't it? Sorry for your stuggle brother. I hope people do not take our experinces as (oh a one time thing). EVERYONE... do not confuse court tv such as; Judge Judy, Joe Brown, etc as "real life". On tv, and THEIR court room they allow certain things to happen because they want viewers. Try that "tone" or language in any court... and you will find yourself either in; jail, dismissed case, or you paying a huge fine... before you can say... "hey I seen that on tv...". EVEN in small claims court... I highly suggest hiring a lawyer to prepare you. This is my .02 cents but I promise you its worth a million bucks.
    Last edited by Firedawg314; 01-11-2012 at 12:19 PM.

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    So, I am sorry to hear about what happened to the OP.

    As usual, he should stay quiet pending conclusion of his legal situation.

    In the meantime, could someone tell me what Hyvee is and whether they have some sort of stand on the 2A in general, OC or CC in particular? Is there history with these folks?

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Another thing I have learned sitting through some trials, appearing as an eye-witness in 2 and expert witness in 1, and literally looking through thousands of court cases as part of my job, is that outside of small claims court, there are a lot of rules. There are state rules and local rules of the court. There are rules about what you can ask, when you can ask, how you can ask, who you can ask. Watching defendents go pro se you see a constant stream of admonitions from the judge about those rules. Just the reality and a good reason to have an attorney to help you wade through the system which is sometimes more important than the facts.

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    So, I am sorry to hear about what happened to the OP.

    As usual, he should stay quiet pending conclusion of his legal situation.

    In the meantime, could someone tell me what Hyvee is and whether they have some sort of stand on the 2A in general, OC or CC in particular? Is there history with these folks?
    Hyvee is a grocery store. They do not have no weapons signs posted. There is an on duty officer that hangs out near the registers for whatever reason, especially late at night.
    Id imagine if they had anything against firearms the store would be posted.
    I and my family absolutely refuse to shop there anymore. I personally avoid it like the plague.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    I'm sorry to hear it. It sounds like you got railroaded. Everyone in the building was on the government's side, except you. Those are hard odds to beat.

    I have to ask, though:
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    While the fines are rellatively low, I'm heavily considering an appeal. This will double my fines and require more money that I don't have.
    Wait... what? They will double your fines if you appeal? How is that consistent with your right to appeal?

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    Regular Member XDSTEEL's Avatar
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    Too Bad

    Too bad... I OC here at the Hyvee and they dont care. Get talk to others here about to.
    Patrick Henry didn't say "Give me safety , or give me death". Liberty is what America is about.

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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I'm sorry to hear it. It sounds like you got railroaded. Everyone in the building was on the government's side, except you. Those are hard odds to beat.

    I have to ask, though:

    Wait... what? They will double your fines if you appeal? How is that consistent with your right to appeal?
    The courts require double your fines as bond in the appeals process. This is outside of the $30 per charge filing fee. It's ridiculous.

    I'm sorry I'm being vague about the situation. It's taxing on the mind and the family to actually have to consider weighing right and wrong and have to base your decision on finances.
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Was this in front of a jury, or simply a judge?
    This was simply in front of a judge. I'm not sure if I can now request a jury for appeals in circuit court. I do believe that this would have positively affected the judgement, though.
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    This was simply in front of a judge. I'm not sure if I can now request a jury for appeals in circuit court. I do believe that this would have positively affected the judgement, though.
    My understanding is that, generally, appeals cannot be based on the facts of the case but rather the argument that some error was committed in the trial that prejudiced the outcome. Appeals are always heard by judges rather than juries.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 01-12-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    I've got an uncle up in St. Joseph that is a police officer. I'll be asking him to see if he was the one that screwed the pooch on it.
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
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    Sorry how it went BCal, but from my lengthy experience in Judge Boeh's courtroom, the only way you can win is if the cop forgets to show up. Judge Nix was cool and fair, but Boeh will always believe a cop over a citizen even when you bring 3 eyewitnesses( I know i had this happen to me but the cops word stood above mine and my 3 witnesses) If u ever plan to fight a charge in front of Boeh you need a good lawyer and witnesses to back up your side along with video evidence or you will absolutely be found guilty simply on the cops statement.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    This was simply in front of a judge. I'm not sure if I can now request a jury for appeals in circuit court. I do believe that this would have positively affected the judgement, though.
    Typically an appeal from municipal court would go to Associate Court ratherr than Circuit Court although there certainly may be local rules or specifics of the charges that make this different, IANAL.

    Appeal to AC from MC here is pretty simple as limitations on presentation of evidence, etc is limited in MC so a bad decision pro se there is easily appealed by an atty to AC (at least that is how the lawyer explained it several years ago to a friend of mine in that situation - lwe won in AC). Again that could very well be be local rules. This is why you need a lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    The courts require double your fines as bond in the appeals process. This is outside of the $30 per charge filing fee. It's ridiculous.

    I'm sorry I'm being vague about the situation. It's taxing on the mind and the family to actually have to consider weighing right and wrong and have to base your decision on finances.

    They don't always require a bond twice the fine for the appeal.

    As others have said, your next step is a trial de novo. http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4790000200.HTM . The cost for this is only $30 and it is automatic assuming you file it within 10 days. I believe this is calendar days. This is assuming it was tried by a judge, not a jury. It's like you get to redo your trial without the town's own judge being involved.

    If you were to lose that, you would be filing an appeal through the court of appeals. The cost of that is $70 and you will need to have the state make a transcript of your trial, which depending on the number of pages, will be about $150 for a trial like yours. After that, the only real costs are making copies -pages and pages of copies- of everything you file to the court and postage.

    The appeal to the Missouri Court of Appeals will have to be based on errors made in the lower court. Simply trying to argue your case or point of view will get your appeal tossed in a summary judgement. In addition, you have to be sure to contest the errors made in the lower court at the first reasonable time. This means either before or during trial. If you forget to object to inadmissible evidence by the city when they submit it into evidence, don't even bother with it in your appeal; The CoA will not address it 99.5% of the time. It's called preserving the errors for appeal. After the next trial, if you were to lose, you would also make a motion for retrial based on any and all errors you might consider in your appeal. The judge will most likely rule against your motion (because he is not going to admit he was wrong), but this will be essential for your appeal to the CoA.

    Even if you have objected to an error, filed a motion for retrial, filed a timely appeal, filed all the required documents for your appeal, perfected your appeal to meet all of the court's requirements (font size, colors or paper, format, citations, index, etc.), and the appeals court finds the lower court made an error, it still doesn't mean your conviction will be overturned. It the error is minor, and the CoA figures you would have been found guilty regardless of the error, you will lose the appeal. Also, if that error is significant, the court may remand the case back to the lower to court to redo it. Instructions will be given about the error and how evidence may or may not be used in the new trial.

    I would at least do the trial de novo. Be sure to file a motion to dismiss before trial though stating Constitutional reasons why the charge should be dropped. Make the city do some work and not just get the cop up on the stand to lie. In my experience, city prosecutors of towns don't like to do all of that and normally assume they can just show up to court and come up with some reason on the fly. Sometimes they just think since it's the local judge they work with all of the time, he will accept it; sometimes he is right. Other times, I've had judge toss the case because the PA didn't have his legal argument ready and presented to the court, on paper. Being in trial de novo, he won't be working with his buddy judge, and will be more in a real court setting and not "kangaroo court". The judge at this level may very well toss the case if the PA doesn't respond to your motion to dismiss.

    Whatever you choose, best of luck. If you have more questions about the appeal process, you can PM me; I have some useful documents.

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