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Thread: Your papers... achtung...

  1. #1
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Your papers... achtung...

    HB 472 Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

    Introduced by: David B. Albo | all patrons ... notes | add to my profiles
    SUMMARY AS INTRODUCED:

    Immigration query at arrest or during detention. Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government.

    http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp...?121+sum+HB472
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    If nothing else this would become at least a "stop and identify law" that is applicable to the whole of the state. Of course if the bill does not provide further guidance on what is acceptable to properly identify ones self, then the already acceptable statement of your name and address would suffice and the person should not be subject to arrest. I don't like it, but for someone to be lawfully arrested under this new law they must first be lawfully stopped and then refuse to provide their name and address and nothing more. Only if the person does not properly identify himself is the LEO specifically authorized to take the following steps under this law.

    I still don't like it though.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 01-11-2012 at 09:26 AM.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Legal Detention or Arrest required

    With that proviso, I have no problem with it. It is not (as written) "Stop and Identify". It is "Now that I have detained or arrested you, can you prove your status?". The difference must be enforced but seems clear and straight forward.

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    Regular Member coondog22554's Avatar
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    It fails to stipulate it applies only to the motor vehicle operator.
    As written passengers would also be required to provide ID.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coondog22554 View Post
    It fails to stipulate it applies only to the motor vehicle operator.
    As written passengers would also be required to provide ID.
    Good Point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    With that proviso, I have no problem with it. It is not (as written) "Stop and Identify". It is "Now that I have detained or arrested you, can you prove your status?". The difference must be enforced but seems clear and straight forward.
    You're right Wolfhound. I squirmed with that wording when I wrote it realizing it only applied when one was already lawfully stopped for the violation of some other law.

    Coondog in the case of a traffic violation type stop you seem to be correct. Note that only the operator of the vehicle would be bound to show a driver's license as proper identification under whatever applicable laws would require a motor vehicle operator to carry the driver's license. The remainder of the passengers, if they are considered lawfully detained, would only be subject to whatever is considered proper identification otherwise since they are not operating the vehicle. This may be perfectly obvious, but I figured I'd re-state it.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 01-11-2012 at 10:05 AM.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    The part that bothers me more, is stipulating that detention is not an arrest. This would change a number of cases (case law) that stipulate detention is arrest.

    The loose wording seems to imply that papers are required not only as an operator of a motor vehicle but also for any detention.

    I need to think some more about it but it is a disturbing viewpoint pushing the stop and identify through in a different manner, start here and work in a more pervasive need to identify.

    I am also Hispanic, my family and forefathers have probably been in this country a lot longer than most others so saying based on race you're Hispanic you must be illegal pisses me off, I know a lot of Hispanic people that are Americans, born here, work here, live here and pay taxes here.

    It isn't cut and dried that you look Mexican so you must be illegal, you aren't white or black so you must not be an American. I think for people that say this they need to visit the Southwest portion of the US and open their eyes. Like gun carriers whether OC or CC the actual number of illegals is probably less than the overinflated political agenda numbers, its a good topic to get funding and money by lying to the public and claiming it's a bigger issue than it really is.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You're not under arrest; you're being detained.
    You're not being detained; you're only being stopped.

    The whole premise is based on trying to find wording that says you haven't been seized, which the Fourth Amendment protects the people from without reason.
    The idea that the Courts seem desperate to put forward is that 'stops' and 'detentions' are not seizures.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You're not under arrest; you're being detained.
    You're not being detained; you're only being stopped.

    The whole premise is based on trying to find wording that says you haven't been seized, which the Fourth Amendment protects the people from without reason.
    The idea that the Courts seem desperate to put forward is that 'stops' and 'detentions' are not seizures.
    1. The legislature should be the ones making the laws, not the courts... says so in the constitution.

    2. Any time you are not free to go you have been seized.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Secondary Violation

    "Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

    Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

    If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government."

    it is against the law to be in the country illegally. But is seems the cops cannot just stop and ask people for their "papers" unless there is a primary traffic violation first.

    Only then, can the cops do anything.

    If you do NOT have a drivers license.. I guess this would be a red flag to the cop. If you have no state ID card.... well.. red flag continues. If you are one of those people that lives off-the-grid and does not believe in government issued ID cards... AND... you are hispanic.... You might run into some trouble.

    But the biggest thing is that if you are driving a car and have no license or ID card to prove who you are... you are probably going to get arrested anyway! ha-ha

  11. #11
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    "Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

    Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

    If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government."

    it is against the law to be in the country illegally. But is seems the cops cannot just stop and ask people for their "papers" unless there is a primary traffic violation first.

    Only then, can the cops do anything.

    If you do NOT have a drivers license.. I guess this would be a red flag to the cop. If you have no state ID card.... well.. red flag continues. If you are one of those people that lives off-the-grid and does not believe in government issued ID cards... AND... you are hispanic.... You might run into some trouble.

    But the biggest thing is that if you are driving a car and have no license or ID card to prove who you are... you are probably going to get arrested anyway! ha-ha
    A long time ago I was driving around in Florida, and was pulled over. I didn't have my license or id, I was told that going home was a good option and probably should stay there until I found my license. Today, yes, it would probably be an automatic felony.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    A long time ago I was driving around in Florida, and was pulled over. I didn't have my license or id, I was told that going home was a good option and probably should stay there until I found my license. Today, yes, it would probably be an automatic felony.
    Too funny! Ya... times have changed and going around now w/o a photo ID is probably not in anyones best interest if it means the difference in getting a ticket or getting jacked up by the man.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    In my little slice of Georgia, they'd just call over the radio for one of the dozen or so guys who have the portable fingerprint reader in their car that shift.
    You could prove you had a valid license (even though not in your possession) and be on your way within minutes, (or so the Captain I spoke to related.)
    The penalty for not having a license in your possession is only about $10 anyway, hardly worth the court's time or trouble.

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