Your papers... achtung...

nuc65 · Jan 11, 2012

HB 472 Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

Introduced by: David B. Albo | all patrons ... notes | add to my profiles
SUMMARY AS INTRODUCED:

Immigration query at arrest or during detention. Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government.

http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?121+sum+HB472

jmelvin · Jan 11, 2012

If nothing else this would become at least a "stop and identify law" that is applicable to the whole of the state. Of course if the bill does not provide further guidance on what is acceptable to properly identify ones self, then the already acceptable statement of your name and address would suffice and the person should not be subject to arrest. I don't like it, but for someone to be lawfully arrested under this new law they must first be lawfully stopped and then refuse to provide their name and address and nothing more. Only if the person does not properly identify himself is the LEO specifically authorized to take the following steps under this law.

I still don't like it though.

The Wolfhound · Jan 11, 2012

Legal Detention or Arrest required

With that proviso, I have no problem with it. It is not (as written) "Stop and Identify". It is "Now that I have detained or arrested you, can you prove your status?". The difference must be enforced but seems clear and straight forward.

coondog22554 · Jan 11, 2012

It fails to stipulate it applies only to the motor vehicle operator.
As written passengers would also be required to provide ID.

peter nap · Jan 11, 2012

coondog22554 said:
It fails to stipulate it applies only to the motor vehicle operator.
As written passengers would also be required to provide ID.

Good Point!

jmelvin · Jan 11, 2012

The Wolfhound said:
With that proviso, I have no problem with it. It is not (as written) "Stop and Identify". It is "Now that I have detained or arrested you, can you prove your status?". The difference must be enforced but seems clear and straight forward.

You're right Wolfhound. I squirmed with that wording when I wrote it realizing it only applied when one was already lawfully stopped for the violation of some other law.

Coondog in the case of a traffic violation type stop you seem to be correct. Note that only the operator of the vehicle would be bound to show a driver's license as proper identification under whatever applicable laws would require a motor vehicle operator to carry the driver's license. The remainder of the passengers, if they are considered lawfully detained, would only be subject to whatever is considered proper identification otherwise since they are not operating the vehicle. This may be perfectly obvious, but I figured I'd re-state it.

nuc65 · Jan 14, 2012

The part that bothers me more, is stipulating that detention is not an arrest. This would change a number of cases (case law) that stipulate detention is arrest.

The loose wording seems to imply that papers are required not only as an operator of a motor vehicle but also for any detention.

I need to think some more about it but it is a disturbing viewpoint pushing the stop and identify through in a different manner, start here and work in a more pervasive need to identify.

I am also Hispanic, my family and forefathers have probably been in this country a lot longer than most others so saying based on race you're Hispanic you must be illegal pisses me off, I know a lot of Hispanic people that are Americans, born here, work here, live here and pay taxes here.

It isn't cut and dried that you look Mexican so you must be illegal, you aren't white or black so you must not be an American. I think for people that say this they need to visit the Southwest portion of the US and open their eyes. Like gun carriers whether OC or CC the actual number of illegals is probably less than the overinflated political agenda numbers, its a good topic to get funding and money by lying to the public and claiming it's a bigger issue than it really is.

Fallschirjmäger · Jan 14, 2012

You're not under arrest; you're being detained.
You're not being detained; you're only being stopped.

The whole premise is based on trying to find wording that says you haven't been seized, which the Fourth Amendment protects the people from without reason.
The idea that the Courts seem desperate to put forward is that 'stops' and 'detentions' are not seizures.

nuc65 · Jan 15, 2012

Fallschirmjäger said:
You're not under arrest; you're being detained.
You're not being detained; you're only being stopped.

The whole premise is based on trying to find wording that says you haven't been seized, which the Fourth Amendment protects the people from without reason.
The idea that the Courts seem desperate to put forward is that 'stops' and 'detentions' are not seizures.

1. The legislature should be the ones making the laws, not the courts... says so in the constitution.

2. Any time you are not free to go you have been seized.

Mayhem · Jan 17, 2012

Secondary Violation

"Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government."

it is against the law to be in the country illegally. But is seems the cops cannot just stop and ask people for their "papers" unless there is a primary traffic violation first.

Only then, can the cops do anything.

If you do NOT have a drivers license.. I guess this would be a red flag to the cop. If you have no state ID card.... well.. red flag continues. If you are one of those people that lives off-the-grid and does not believe in government issued ID cards... AND... you are hispanic.... You might run into some trouble.

But the biggest thing is that if you are driving a car and have no license or ID card to prove who you are... you are probably going to get arrested anyway! ha-ha

nuc65 · Jan 17, 2012

Mayhem said:
"Immigration query at arrest or during detention.

Provides that when a law-enforcement officer lawfully detains a person who cannot produce a driver’s license or properly identify himself following a lawful traffic stop, the officer is authorized, during the detention, to make certain prescribed inquiries of the detainee and of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

If the officer forms a reasonable suspicion, on the basis of such inquiries, that the person is unlawfully present in the United States and determines that the person has also been previously deported, the officer may arrest the person or, if he has not been previously deported, detain the person for transfer of custody to the federal government."

it is against the law to be in the country illegally. But is seems the cops cannot just stop and ask people for their "papers" unless there is a primary traffic violation first.

Only then, can the cops do anything.

If you do NOT have a drivers license.. I guess this would be a red flag to the cop. If you have no state ID card.... well.. red flag continues. If you are one of those people that lives off-the-grid and does not believe in government issued ID cards... AND... you are hispanic.... You might run into some trouble.

But the biggest thing is that if you are driving a car and have no license or ID card to prove who you are... you are probably going to get arrested anyway! ha-ha

A long time ago I was driving around in Florida, and was pulled over. I didn't have my license or id, I was told that going home was a good option and probably should stay there until I found my license. Today, yes, it would probably be an automatic felony.

Mayhem · Jan 18, 2012

nuc65 said:
A long time ago I was driving around in Florida, and was pulled over. I didn't have my license or id, I was told that going home was a good option and probably should stay there until I found my license. Today, yes, it would probably be an automatic felony.

Too funny! Ya... times have changed and going around now w/o a photo ID is probably not in anyones best interest if it means the difference in getting a ticket or getting jacked up by the man.

Fallschirjmäger · Jan 18, 2012

In my little slice of Georgia, they'd just call over the radio for one of the dozen or so guys who have the portable fingerprint reader in their car that shift.
You could prove you had a valid license (even though not in your possession) and be on your way within minutes, (or so the Captain I spoke to related.)
The penalty for not having a license in your possession is only about $10 anyway, hardly worth the court's time or trouble.

Your papers... achtung...

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