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Thread: Can a shrouded hammer be fired inside a pocket

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Can a shrouded hammer be fired inside a pocket

    Anyone with more revolver experience than I know if a shrouded hammer can be fired inside a coat pocket? I am looking at getting a S&W 649 but want to make sure the shrouded hammer could fire inside my coat pocket without the hammer getting stuck on my jacket. Looking at the picture it looks like it should be able to but would like a second option

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y
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  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Anyone with more revolver experience than I know if a shrouded hammer can be fired inside a coat pocket? I am looking at getting a S&W 649 but want to make sure the shrouded hammer could fire inside my coat pocket without the hammer getting stuck on my jacket. Looking at the picture it looks like it should be able to but would like a second option
    A second option would be an automatic, but, yes, any gun without an exposed hammer/striker will fire.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    It may work every single time that you want to fire it from your pocket. But you are taking a risk of getting little things like keys/change/pocket lint in between the hammer and the firing pin/firing pin primer. So, if you are determined to carry it in a pocket (probably unholstered as it would be difficult to draw within your pocket) I would suggest something more along the lines of the 640 with an internal hammer and advise you to carry ONLY your gun in that pocket and keep it and your gun clean. Also I would stay away from automatics as your clothing will probably hinder the cycling so much that it would only be a one shot gun.

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A shrouded hammer revolver should be able to fire repeatedly from inside your coat pocket. You may face a number of problems, though - starting with hot gases escaping from the cylinder gap, and ending up with a coat pocket lining blizzard. In between those two extreme ends are things like the revolver twisting out of position unless it was carried in a properly functioning pocket holster (not all are made alike or work alike) and "stuff" getting into either the muzzle end of the barrel, inside the cylinder gap, inside the trigger guard, up behind the trigger and frame or inside the lockwork, and ending up with "pocket junk" stuck in that channel where the hammer rides back and forth under the shroud.

    Having said all that, let me also say that I have carried a shrounded-hammer revolver in a coat pocket many a time, and on two occassions fired it from inside the pocket. Worked like a champ both times!

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    fire suppressor,

    Yes, it will fire. But as always, if you carry a "pocket-gun" do NOT carry ANYTHING ELSE in the same pocket. ONLY the gun. And consider a pocket-holster than orients the gun in the same way inside the pocket so you always know where the grip is every time you reach for it (no "surprises" or fumbling for the grip)!

    As for your clothes catching fire, it's possible, but if you need to be shooting your gun, then you have MUCH more serious issues to be concerned about than your clothes!

    ...kind of like the people who worry about re-holstering their guns, that they have trouble getting a gun back INTO its holster after drawing it -- forget it: You really don't care about getting a gun INTO a holster, you only care about getting it OUT. If you survive the encounter, you've PLENTY of time to get it back INTO the holster...if you don't survive then it doesn't matter, does it.

    So your pants or sport-coat MIGHT catch fire -- you're still alive, buy another. Or go through the BG's pocket ("just looking for identification") and have HIM pay for your replacement clothing -- and maybe even extra $$ for going out to dinner or whatever. Works for me.

    ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 01-11-2012 at 04:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    A second option would be an automatic....
    Probably for one shot, unless you press it out of battery. For subsequent shots, a semi runs a much bigger risk of getting snagged than even a standard unshrouded revolver.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Anyone with more revolver experience than I know if a shrouded hammer can be fired inside a coat pocket? I am looking at getting a S&W 649 but want to make sure the shrouded hammer could fire inside my coat pocket without the hammer getting stuck on my jacket. Looking at the picture it looks like it should be able to but would like a second option

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y
    I'd be more worried about the gun firing without my intention to do so.

    Most carry-related NDs are from people carrying guns around loose in their pockets without a proper pocket holster. And a proper pocket holster would pretty much prevent you from firing from your pocket, because it completely covers the trigger.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    If you are CCing, you shouldn't need to worry about firing from your pocket, because CC affords you the mystical and unassailable "Tacticool Advantage (tm)" that magically enables CCers to "get the drop" on an armed, violent assailant who already has the drop on them.

    If you are ever attacked with deadly force, your CC permit will begin glowing with mystical energy, alerting you to the danger, and causing a break in the time-space continuum, which allows you, from concealment, to out-shoot someone who is already pointing a gun at you with their finger on the trigger.

    Everyone knows this...

    <sarcasm OFF>
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Yes, it can I have considered getting a s&w 438 for a backup gun. I love that shrouded hammer for the pocket shooting option and I am a CC.


    Blake


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    Last edited by blgreene89; 01-11-2012 at 11:11 PM.

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    "And a proper pocket holster would pretty much prevent you from firing from your pocket, because it completely covers the trigger."



    A "proper" pocket hoslter can also come in a version you CAN shoot while the gun is still in it and still in the pocket...if that's what the OP wants to do.

    Personally, however, I'd prefer to draw a "pocket gun" from said pocket in order to use it...if one MUST shoot while it's still in the pocket, that MIGHT indicate one's situational awareness needs improvement. I wouldn't want to play a game of "catch-up" with my assailant as he is likely already to have the advantage of surprise and that'd give a 2nd advantage to him. Consequently, I would hope to see trouble coming and have time to prepare to draw (or actually draw) and not let anyone get too close for a from-the-pocket shooting situation!
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 01-12-2012 at 12:23 AM.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Personally, however, I'd prefer to draw a "pocket gun" from said pocket in order to use it...if one MUST shoot while it's still in the pocket, that MIGHT indicate one's situational awareness needs improvement. I wouldn't want to play a game of "catch-up" with my assailant as he is likely already to have the advantage of surprise and that'd give a 2nd advantage to him. Consequently, I would hope to see trouble coming and have time to prepare to draw (or actually draw) and not let anyone get too close for a from-the-pocket shooting situation!
    In a perfect world you wouldn't need a firearm for self defense.

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Thank you everyone for your input I was raised with firearms and have been shooting for 15+ years, but what I am figuring out is automatic pistol knowledge does not transfer into revolver knowledge. I have been researching revolvers for a few months now and the 649 is my front runner but want to try and cover every angle. Thanks for the help
    Last edited by fire suppressor; 01-12-2012 at 02:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    "And a proper pocket holster would pretty much prevent you from firing from your pocket, because it completely covers the trigger."

    A "proper" pocket hoslter can also come in a version you CAN shoot while the gun is still in it and still in the pocket...if that's what the OP wants to do.
    Unfortunately, such holsters also come with up to five years in federal prison, unless registered and taxed as an Any Other Weapon.

    Yes, it is ridiculous. I've also seen it used to prosecute someone who was being very very strange, but committing no other crime.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Unfortunately, such holsters also come with up to five years in federal prison, unless registered and taxed as an Any Other Weapon.

    Yes, it is ridiculous. I've also seen it used to prosecute someone who was being very very strange, but committing no other crime.
    I'm calling BS on this statement. Please, PLEASE cite any federal law or court precedent that would indicate that this makes my perfectly legal P3AT into an AOW.

    http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/...r-p-40318.html

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    I'm calling BS on this statement. Please, PLEASE cite any federal law or court precedent that would indicate that this makes my perfectly legal P3AT into an AOW.

    http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/...r-p-40318.html
    I think we all would like to hear that.

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    If you look up that Desantis holster on the Desantis website, there is a link for a .pdf of letter from ATF saying the holster does not fit the definition of "any other weapon." The distinction seems to be that the holster does not conceal the nature of the gun whereas other similar AOWs conceal the nature of the weapon. The letter dates from June 2000.

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    To answer the OP's initial question, yes, it will shoot through the pocket. About two months ago I tested my 638 with an old raincoat I no longer wear. The raincoat even had cotton-lined pockets, and all 5 shots fired successfully with no malfunctions and no human combustion (just minor burn marks on the lining and a good amount of powder residue). I found all five shots successfully hit center mass at 7 yards (about an 8" group) using very elementary point shooting.
    Carry Safely, Carry Proudly, and Carry ALWAYS!

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    fire suppressor,

    You're welcome.

    It's nice to see someone with manners, thanking people who have taken the time to post responses in a Forum.

    People with manners are increasingly rare nowadays... ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    I'm calling BS on this statement. Please, PLEASE cite any federal law or court precedent that would indicate that this makes my perfectly legal P3AT into an AOW.

    http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/...r-p-40318.html
    Scroll down to Wallet Holsters:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...-firearms.html

    If DeSantis has an ATF ruling that their holster is not an AOW, it's because it doesn't disguise its true nature as a firearm while remaining fireable.

    Feel free to retract your call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Scroll down to Wallet Holsters:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...-firearms.html

    If DeSantis has an ATF ruling that their holster is not an AOW, it's because it doesn't disguise its true nature as a firearm while remaining fireable.

    Feel free to retract your call.
    Thanks for the link KB. It would help if the ATF would cite the statute section or quote the language of the statute so readers can understand better.

    Of course, understanding is not what ATF wants. It wants compliance with its decrees. And, besides, a pesky subject might take into his head to differ with their "interpretation" of statute language.

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    The original S&W Bodyguard model, 49 and 649, was designed specifically to be fired from within a coat pocket. I, myself, don't like the ones chambered for .357, and I'd be afraid I'd fry my hand using one of those from inside a pocket (see Skidmark's cautionary notes). Mine is a 49 chambered in .38, and I love it. Had a 649 chambered in .357 and it was just too much trouble, flash, bang, and recoil for such an itty bitty gun.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Thanks for the link KB. It would help if the ATF would cite the statute section or quote the language of the statute so readers can understand better.

    Of course, understanding is not what ATF wants. It wants compliance with its decrees. And, besides, a pesky subject might take into his head to differ with their "interpretation" of statute language.
    What's more, ATF doesn't want people seeing that the law doesn't say what they say it does.

    Here's the law:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5845.shtml

    The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

    That's the entire legal definition of an AOW. Now, just for fun, take that definition and try to explain their claims in this 1997 newsletter to licensees, starting near the bottom of Page 5 ("Wallet Guns"):

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-1997-08.pdf

    Head spinning yet?
    Last edited by KBCraig; 01-15-2012 at 09:06 PM.

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    Regular Member Operator_223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Anyone with more revolver experience than I know if a shrouded hammer can be fired inside a coat pocket? I am looking at getting a S&W 649 but want to make sure the shrouded hammer could fire inside my coat pocket without the hammer getting stuck on my jacket. Looking at the picture it looks like it should be able to but would like a second option

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y
    dude, why dont you stick it in your front pants' pocket and give it a try? sheeeeesh !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Operator_223 View Post
    dude, why dont you stick it in your front pants' pocket and give it a try? sheeeeesh !!!
    Good thinking! Because you know that if the hammer falls then it would go bang every time, right? Wrong, just because the hammer fell doesn't even mean it would have fired the 1st time (clothes could have slowed the hammer down enough not to strike the primer hard enough) and just because the pants that he was that day worked/didn't work doesn't mean that the next pair would be the exact same way.

    So he was asking for experience/knowledge in this very specific situation, something that he is probably naive about. And it seems like you know less than what he does, because at least he don't want to remain ignorant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    SNIP Head spinning yet?
    No. You see, I finally figured out that government is founded on a criminal premise* and the criminality only gets worse from there. Part and parcel of criminality is evasions, distortions, camoflages, and lies. So, I know better than to try to actually process anything the government says as though it would make sense or was truthful. Thus, I hold it at a distance, turn it around, look it over, and, if anything, just proceed to trying to figure out what they're really up to. Knowing full well that 99.9% of the time it means ill for me and everyone else.


    *Government proceeds from a criminal premise. Lysander Spooner pointed this out in an essay called NoTreason. I'll paraphrase.


    It is criminal to extort money under threat of violence. A highwayman does it without pretending it is moral or just.

    Just because Mssrs. A, B, and C select D by way of an election and depute him to do the extorting can in no way make it less criminal.

    I'm not saying it isn't a necessary criminality. But, if you take a calm, level look at it, there is no avoiding it. Government proceeds from a criminal premise.

    And, we wonder why government is so full of corruption, power games, etc. I can tell you why, because it starts from a criminal premise but then we "make it OK" by thinking that an election somehow legitimizes it. Well, its no wonder at all there is corruption, power games, control freaks, etc.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-16-2012 at 03:45 AM.

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