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Thread: Training: Cops vs Citizens on OC

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    Training: Cops vs Citizens on OC

    i was reading a few posts and started to think about why some of the Public are uneasy about seeing a citizen carrying openly, yet have no issue with Police OCing. i thought I would raise the question, Is it because they think citizens are less trained, therefore more prone to accidents? I'm all for Training and think everyone who carries should take personal responsibility when Exercising their rights. I think Most people do so and are well trained by the way.

    What can OCers do to get rid of this notion(if it is the case) that Law abiding citizens are less trained?

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil View Post
    What can OCers do to get rid of this notion (if it is the case) that Law abiding citizens are less trained?
    It is the case that citizens are less trained than professional enforcers, but that is not the issue. What is the appropriate level of training for a legally armed citizen and what is the appropriate level of training of an enforcer?

    More to the issue, what are the levels of education that we should expect, and in what particular subjects? All this in an age of meaningless credentialism and authoritarianism.

    @OP, I hope that you do know what versus - vs - means? Against, and turned against. Follow the idea of thumbs-up and thumbs-down Pollice verso from our Romance beginnings, but be careful because the meanings have been twisted by the winds of time.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-11-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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    not implying that Cops and OCers are against each other. just pointing out the general publics mental confliction towards Cops and OCers. I think Ocers have the ability to change the the view over time as it becomes more prevalent in society.

    My question is just trying to peer into the mind of people who are uncomfortable when they see a law abiding citrizen with a gun on their hip.

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil View Post
    My question is just trying to peer into the mind of people who are uncomfortable when they see a law abiding citrizen with a gun on their hip.
    Let's hope that there are none of those around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil View Post
    not implying that Cops and OCers are against each other. just pointing out the general public's mental confliction towards Cops and OCers. I think Ocers have the ability to change the the view over time as it becomes more prevalent in society.

    My question is just trying to peer into the mind of people who are uncomfortable when they see a law abiding citrizen with a gun on their hip.
    I respectfully submit that you reexamine the premise of your statement above.

    Why must the OCer be the one to change the 'view of OCers' when LE could do this far more easily and far more rapidly. 'Top Cops' could simply state, publicly, that a visible and properly holstered firearm is not against the law (where OC it is not against the law that is).

    Simply cite the law and tell folks in simple terms that anyone will understand. If you think you see a crime, like a gun in the hand, report it. Seeing a holstered firearm is not a crime, so do not report it. The weight of those words will stick and stick fast if the citizenry were also told that reports of a properly holstered firearm will be investigated as a violation of submitting a false report to LE.

    It would not take very much effort, very little time and have far reaching impacts for the positive. OCers, are no threat to LE or the citizenry and LE knows this.
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    Obviuously, one of the biggest reasons THEY are disturbed when THEY see a person not in uniform/not displaying a badge1 is because THEY equate guns with bad. What do they see on TV and in the movies? What roles are there in video games? And if that's not bad enough, remember that a large percentage of THEM are going to be projecting THEIR psychological fantasies of blowing away every jerk who "disses" THEM or cuts THEM off in traffic or butts in line ahead of THEM or does anything else that makes THEM feel helpless.

    And there is possibly the biggest issue of all - that THEY feel helpless and are highly upset that a person OCing is not helpless. I might be old and infirm, but THEIR thinking is "Buddy, if you try to do something to me I can pull out the ol' pistola and not just even the playing field but take away everything that made Mr. BG think he had the upper hand." THEY will not do what is needed to gain whatever "upper hand" THEY think I posses, but THEY are mightily POd that I do - in THEIR minds, at least - have the upper hand. (Remember, to achieve equality you must take away from those who have something and pass it around among those who had none or less.)

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    DanieltheAnvil,

    Statistics show that it's the COPS who need the (actually, MORE) training, not armed citizens. Armed citizens perform quite well as they are.

    But I DO agree that the popular (but as usual, ignorant) public belief is quite the contrary...
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 01-12-2012 at 12:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    DanieltheAnvil,

    Statistics show that it's the COPS who need the (actually, MORE) training, not armed citizens. Armed citizens perform quite well as they are.

    But I DO agree that the popular (but as usual, ignorant) public belief is quite the contrary...
    "Statistics" rarely, if ever, impress me. They are even less likely to do so when the statistic itself is not present, or when there is no citation supporting. Based upon my personal observations (for which there are no supporting statistics) over the past half-century I will say the following:

    1. Virtually ALL LEO's receive some self defense training. P.O.S.T./Police Academy training is required in most jurisdictions prior to certification. The training includes both armed (lethal and non-lethal) and unarmed (hand-to-hand) self defense. Since my experience is only with one agency. I obviously cannot speak to all LE agencies, but Utah's POST was quite comprehensive 25 years ago, and the Davis County Sheriff's Office had semi-annual IST and firearm qualification requirements.

    2. Citizens who choose to OC presents a completely different set of circumstances. There is no training required for the exercise of this Constitutional right, and subsequently any 'training' is voluntary. And here's where things get a bit clouded... I assume that those of us who frequent this, and other related forums (CC, 2A, etc.), are responsible gun owners, who have either educated ourselves through hours/years of research, and thousands of rounds expended in practice, or we have spent significant amounts of money at places like Frontsight, Top Gun, Bullseye or Gunsite to be trained by "professionals" - or both.

    The question is: "Are we in the OC Forum truly representative of the 'average' gun-toting civilian?" People - as do water and electricity - have a natural tendency to take "the path of least resistance", and that's completely understandable. Why expend more time and energy than you must in order to accomplish your goal? In terms of the application of human effort we refer to this approach as "efficiency". But. the carrying and implementation of a sidearm is only efficient if, like any other learned physical activity, it is practiced frequently and with consistency. Because of this, I believe that we are the exceptions to the rule. We do these things not only from a heightened sense of responsibility, but because we enjoy our time on the range or in the desert/prairie/woods. We have a deserved sense of pride in our abilities to safely and efficiently carry and employ (if necessary) our handgun(s).

    Personally, I don't believe the 'average' owner of one handgun (which probably spends most of its time on a nightstand), who doesn't frequently OC, lacks the same 'qualifications' that we enthusiasts have.

    The above is nothing more than my opinion on this subject. It is based upon anecdotal evidence, rather than statistical support. I have greater faith in what I have personally observed, than I do in numbers compiled by somebody whose agenda I know nothing about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    .....The question is: "Are we in the OC Forum truly representative of the 'average' gun-toting civilian?" People - as do water and electricity - have a natural tendency to take "the path of least resistance", and that's completely understandable. Why expend more time and energy than you must in order to accomplish your goal? In terms of the application of human effort we refer to this approach as "efficiency". But. the carrying and implementation of a sidearm is only efficient if, like any other learned physical activity, it is practiced frequently and with consistency. Because of this, I believe that we are the exceptions to the rule. We do these things not only from a heightened sense of responsibility, but because we enjoy our time on the range or in the desert/prairie/woods. We have a deserved sense of pride in our abilities to safely and efficiently carry and employ (if necessary) our handgun(s).

    Personally, I don't believe the 'average' owner of one handgun (which probably spends most of its time on a nightstand), who doesn't frequently OC, lacks the same 'qualifications' that we enthusiasts have.

    The above is nothing more than my opinion on this subject. It is based upon anecdotal evidence, rather than statistical support. I have greater faith in what I have personally observed, than I do in numbers compiled by somebody whose agenda I know nothing about.

    Agreed.....until the "citizenry" SEE more and more of US, they will always perceive us as "bad"

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    I have to agree with 'cloudcroft.' I feel that I have more training than most cops. No, it's not formal, but in my mind, reading blogs and articles and wathcing YouTube videos, ect... is indeed training. Especially if, such as my self, you go go out to the range every week or so and shoot a few mags. I know for a fact that what I do is WAY more than what St. Louis county cops do. I know several very well that are security where I used to work, and they are only required to shoot TWO MAGS, only ONCE A YEAR!!! The only required training they get (besides initial in the academy) is if a new firearm is issued, or if they have an issue with misuse while on duty.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil View Post
    What can OCers do to get rid of this notion(if it is the case) that Law abiding citizens are less trained?
    You used the term "uneasy" to describe the attitude of the general public toward OC'ing by a civilian. I think that's an excellent description. At the very least OC causes some raised eyebrows. OC by police officers is a requirement of their job. It has always been so, and it is accepted by the public as a matter of fact.

    I believe that people are less uncomfortable seeing a handgun openly displayed in a holster, as opposed to one tucked in a waistband and peeking out from under a jacket. Most people who are not "into" guns, or have little knowledge of the Constitution (in general), and specifically Article II of the Bill of Rights, need more education on the subject. Exposure to more OC'ers may generate interest and - with that interest - specific questions asked of the OC'er. We should all try to be knowledgeable 'goodwill ambassadors' of IIA, and have additional, coherent explanations, other than simply saying, "Because the Second amendment says I can!" Most of us see OC as more than just a right. It's also responsibility to ourselves, and a duty to our family (and our society, even if they don't know or appreciate it).

    If it is legal in your area and you don't open carry, begin doing so... but try to avoid the "John Wayne swagger". The more exposure the community has to OC, the less uncomfortable they will become. It should work like desensitization training for any fear or unfounded phobia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil
    ...why some of the Public are uneasy about seeing a citizen carrying openly, yet have no issue with Police OCing.
    AFAIK the vast majority of police are also citizens.
    As for why a few defenseless people are uneasy around citizens, I agree with several posts so far:
    - jealosy
    - reluctance to protect self
    - realization that self is vulnerable
    - mistaken idea that the average police officer has more training than the average armed citizen
    - mistaken idea that the average armed citizen wants to
    a) show off
    b) harm people

    How about the mistaken idea that police are supposed to protect us?
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    The only way the "public" will get over their being "uneasy" is exposure and education. Seeing openly carried firearms, regularly, can eventually de-sensitize the puiblic. But not as fast as education. I wonder, for every call I see, or hear about, where a LEO has to investigate a "man with a gun", how many times does the LEO follow up with the caller and educate them, and not with some "nothing I can do" comment, but rather with some good education on how it's a right and fully within the limits of the law?

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    Even with "less training" armed citizens do WAY better (hit their traget, less ammo expended doing so, fewer instances of "collateral damage" to property and/or innocent bystanders, etc.) in shootouts than cops do, so the amount of traning an "average citizens" gets -- none, some, as much as cops do or more than cops do -- isn't relevant whatsoever. In a hypothetical shootout between cops and citizens who choose to carry (CC or OC), I'll bet on the citizens for sure.

    Regardless, it's the COPS who need the training, not citizens. Always has been that way, at least for decades now.

    I do agree, however (and have said the same for YEARS), that the average "gun-owner" is for the most part only that, a gun-owner (as he/she also owns other property such as a toothbrush/TV set, dishes, power tools, etc. -- it doesn't mean anything) but then again, MOST (95% or more) "gun-owners" do not carry anyway, either CC (as most prefer, for various reasons) or the EVEN LESS number of gun-owners who actually OC. Still, even these "at home only" gun-owners do surprisingly well when it comes to shootouts with criminals (in their homes)...especially since almost all of those "closet" gun-owners have had ZERO training.

    My point is, COPS need the training, not the average armed citizen. I think criminals even know that.

    As always, I'm not trying to convince or persuade anyone here of anything; this is MY opinion and has been for years. Others have their opinions.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 01-12-2012 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    "Statistics" rarely, if ever, impress me. They are even less likely to do so when the statistic itself is not present, or when there is no citation supporting. Based upon my personal observations (for which there are no supporting statistics) over the past half-century I will say the following:

    1. Virtually ALL LEO's receive some self defense training. P.O.S.T./Police Academy training is required in most jurisdictions prior to certification. The training includes both armed (lethal and non-lethal) and unarmed (hand-to-hand) self defense. Since my experience is only with one agency. I obviously cannot speak to all LE agencies, but Utah's POST was quite comprehensive 25 years ago, and the Davis County Sheriff's Office had semi-annual IST and firearm qualification requirements.

    2. Citizens who choose to OC presents a completely different set of circumstances. There is no training required for the exercise of this Constitutional right, and subsequently any 'training' is voluntary. And here's where things get a bit clouded... I assume that those of us who frequent this, and other related forums (CC, 2A, etc.), are responsible gun owners, who have either educated ourselves through hours/years of research, and thousands of rounds expended in practice, or we have spent significant amounts of money at places like Frontsight, Top Gun, Bullseye or Gunsite to be trained by "professionals" - or both.

    The question is: "Are we in the OC Forum truly representative of the 'average' gun-toting civilian?" People - as do water and electricity - have a natural tendency to take "the path of least resistance", and that's completely understandable. Why expend more time and energy than you must in order to accomplish your goal? In terms of the application of human effort we refer to this approach as "efficiency". But. the carrying and implementation of a sidearm is only efficient if, like any other learned physical activity, it is practiced frequently and with consistency. Because of this, I believe that we are the exceptions to the rule. We do these things not only from a heightened sense of responsibility, but because we enjoy our time on the range or in the desert/prairie/woods. We have a deserved sense of pride in our abilities to safely and efficiently carry and employ (if necessary) our handgun(s).

    Personally, I don't believe the 'average' owner of one handgun (which probably spends most of its time on a nightstand), who doesn't frequently OC, lacks the same 'qualifications' that we enthusiasts have.

    The above is nothing more than my opinion on this subject. It is based upon anecdotal evidence, rather than statistical support. I have greater faith in what I have personally observed, than I do in numbers compiled by somebody whose agenda I know nothing about.
    And if one looks at the stats they can see that cops with all of that "training" are over 500% (5x) as likely to hurt a bystander than a regular armed citizen (stats are 11% shootings by cops result in bystander injuries compared to 2% of regular citizen shootings; cite info from gunfacts.info if you want to look deeper at the stats). Choosing to ignore statistics is rather...unwise...as when properly gathered they paint a bigger picture than what one person can experience. Additionally one's personal experiences can also be skewed by bad "luck." For example someone could be robbed three times in a single year, but that experience would be well out of the norm of normal experiences. Or a cop's experiences of how "citizens" act due to the fact that they regularly insert themselves into bad situations and deal with the scum of society.

    So while stats shouldn't just be blindly believed, they shouldn't be so quickly dismissed either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanieltheAnvil View Post
    Is it because they think citizens are less trained, therefore more prone to accidents?
    When it comes to doing police work, the police are far better trained than I am.

    When it comes to the properly handling a firearm, I am better trained than most police officers.

    When it comes to the use of a firearm in a public situation involving both one or more criminals and innocent bystanders, the police are again better-trained. I do believer, however, I'm a better shot, and am more likely to take the additional half-second to properly ID my target and ensure I hit my mark. As I very rarely find myself in that situation (to date, never) I would be less concerned about being shot, and more concerned about not shooting someone who is innocent. Think that for most policemen, personal protection comes first, particularly as they encounter these situations far more frequently.

    What can OCers do to get rid of this notion(if it is the case) that Law abiding citizens are less trained?
    Remain well-trained and keep the 11% (LEO) vs 2% (CC/OC) stats well in our favor.
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    Have you actually thought about what it takes to conduct police work? We are not talking about a one man, Sheriff Andy Taylor PD. Through enough people, data access, and authority and most folks can do that job. The hard part is doing within the law.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Edit: 'Throw enough....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    The answer is easy but has multiple parts:

    1. many people believe the practice is illegal and because of that misconception they do not like it.

    2. many people are bothered because when they see someone equivalent to them carrying a weapon it makes them uneasy about their safety because they are not prepared themselves and would rather convince themselves there is no need for a weapon in public. OC pierces this fantasy and thus is the focus of ire.

    3. Liberals (for the most part) don't like guns and are part of the general public.

    4. OC is outside the norm. Many people do not like ANYTHING outside the norm. Taboo, to say it another way.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Even with "less training" armed citizens do WAY better (hit their traget, less ammo expended doing so, fewer instances of "collateral damage" to property and/or innocent bystanders, etc.) in shootouts than cops do, so the amount of traning an "average citizens" gets -- none, some, as much as cops do or more than cops do -- isn't relevant whatsoever. In a hypothetical shootout between cops and citizens who choose to carry (CC or OC), I'll bet on the citizens for sure.

    Regardless, it's the COPS who need the training, not citizens. Always has been that way, at least for decades now.

    I do agree, however (and have said the same for YEARS), that the average "gun-owner" is for the most part only that, a gun-owner (as he/she also owns other property such as a toothbrush/TV set, dishes, power tools, etc. -- it doesn't mean anything) but then again, MOST (95% or more) "gun-owners" do not carry anyway, either CC (as most prefer, for various reasons) or the EVEN LESS number of gun-owners who actually OC. Still, even these "at home only" gun-owners do surprisingly well when it comes to shootouts with criminals (in their homes)...especially since almost all of those "closet" gun-owners have had ZERO training.

    My point is, COPS need the training, not the average armed citizen. I think criminals even know that.

    As always, I'm not trying to convince or persuade anyone here of anything; this is MY opinion and has been for years. Others have their opinions.
    I think you should keep in mind that while private citizens often feel they are better marksmen than police officers, (which they usually get from looking at statistics from police shootouts), remember that most private citizens judge their skills of accuracy on a shooting range, from a static or nearly static position, from a relaxed state of mind, no adrenaline rush, all the time in the world, and without the fear of the paper target shooting back. Target shooting and a fight for your life are two different beasts entirely. Police officers train for the fight of your life senario where as most PCs do not have that opportunity. Just something you might want to keep in mind.

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    Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    I have to agree with 'cloudcroft.' I feel that I have more training than most cops. No, it's not formal, but in my mind, reading blogs and articles and wathcing YouTube videos, ect... is indeed training. Especially if, such as my self, you go go out to the range every week or so and shoot a few mags. I know for a fact that what I do is WAY more than what St. Louis county cops do. I know several very well that are security where I used to work, and they are only required to shoot TWO MAGS, only ONCE A YEAR!!! The only required training they get (besides initial in the academy) is if a new firearm is issued, or if they have an issue with misuse while on duty.
    Can you really compare police training (most acadamies are 6 months or longer, paramilitary style training, with rigorous shooting, case law, and DT standards) with simply reading and watching youtube videos?

  22. #22
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Welcome.

    I qualified on the same range, under the same RSO as my PD. The RSO gave the cops red asses comparing them to this old retired fart advisory board member. That PD was the first accredited in the state. Just one anecdote suggesting that you are painting with a broad brush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Welcome.

    I qualified on the same range, under the same RSO as my PD. The RSO gave the cops red asses comparing them to this old retired fart advisory board member. That PD was the first accredited in the state. Just one anecdote suggesting that you are painting with a broad brush.
    Again, that still bring me to my point....Accuracy Shooting on a static range is just one aspect of safe weapon carrying, I applaud anyone who is a great shot, but that's only one part of responsible carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanC1985 View Post
    I think you should keep in mind that while private citizens often feel they are better marksmen than police officers, (which they usually get from looking at statistics from police shootouts), remember that most private citizens judge their skills of accuracy on a shooting range, from a static or nearly static position, from a relaxed state of mind, no adrenaline rush, all the time in the world, and without the fear of the paper target shooting back. Target shooting and a fight for your life are two different beasts entirely. Police officers train for the fight of your life senario where as most PCs do not have that opportunity. Just something you might want to keep in mind.
    Police use of weapons in real life situations results in an 11% bystander injury rate, compared to the 2% bystander injury rate when citizens use their guns (info from guncite.info feel free to look it up if you don't believe me). So even when citizens use their weapons in real life situations they are better shots than cops. Just something you might want to keep in mind.

    Can you really compare police training (most acadamies are 6 months or longer, paramilitary style training, with rigorous shooting, case law, and DT standards) with simply reading and watching youtube videos?
    I'm in the military along with many other people on this board. While I haven't been to the police academy I have served with people who have gone through the academy and they have all said AF BMT (which is often viewed as the "easiest" of the BMTs) was harder than the academy. And I can say that the military training is fairly easy. As such I don't expect a whole lot out of your academy training outside of the basics to do your job. And I even expect much of that to fade once you hit the actual force unless you make it a point to practice or you do it as a routine part of your job. I know that I've seen many people forget a good deal of what was taught at BMT (most common/quickest forgotten thing is forgetting how to march and we do it every day at BMT!) unless they do it regularly or make it a point to remember. So please quit acting like the academy is this awesome silver bullet training regime that instantly makes cops better than regular citizens. Simply going to the academy isn't going to make you good at using a weapon; and this is especially true if the cop doesn't properly practice once out of the academy. Remember, things like the academy or BMT are designed to teach people, but also for those people to pass so long as they put forward some effort.

    And yes, watching reading blogs and watching videos can be comparable to a cop who went through the academy and never practiced their skills again outside of the annual qual (both might have a general idea of what to do, but neither will be very good at proper execution). The reading blogs and watching of videos can be even better should the individual then practice on their own what they read/watched even if it isn't "formal" training.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 01-15-2012 at 04:25 AM.

  25. #25
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanC1985 View Post
    Again, that still bring me to my point....Accuracy Shooting on a static range is just one aspect of safe weapon carrying, I applaud anyone who is a great shot, but that's only one part of responsible carry.
    Hmm, I missed the part about my PD's recurring dynamic range qualification. If they saw one it was at CJA and I don't recall, twenty-ish years later, mention of one. I'm sure that DHS has paramilitarized the SWAT at some federal law enforcement training center not far away.

    It was an interesting PD, with about 100 beat cops at the time, nine were named Sean, including the SWAT Lt. Dressed out, he had to turn and duck to go through a normal door without destroying it.

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