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Training: Cops vs Citizens on OC

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
Re:

I have to agree with 'cloudcroft.' I feel that I have more training than most cops. No, it's not formal, but in my mind, reading blogs and articles and wathcing YouTube videos, ect... is indeed training. Especially if, such as my self, you go go out to the range every week or so and shoot a few mags. I know for a fact that what I do is WAY more than what St. Louis county cops do. I know several very well that are security where I used to work, and they are only required to shoot TWO MAGS, only ONCE A YEAR!!! The only required training they get (besides initial in the academy) is if a new firearm is issued, or if they have an issue with misuse while on duty.

Can you really compare police training (most acadamies are 6 months or longer, paramilitary style training, with rigorous shooting, case law, and DT standards) with simply reading and watching youtube videos?
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Welcome.

I qualified on the same range, under the same RSO as my PD. The RSO gave the cops red asses comparing them to this old retired fart advisory board member. That PD was the first accredited in the state. Just one anecdote suggesting that you are painting with a broad brush.
 

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
Welcome.

I qualified on the same range, under the same RSO as my PD. The RSO gave the cops red asses comparing them to this old retired fart advisory board member. That PD was the first accredited in the state. Just one anecdote suggesting that you are painting with a broad brush.

Again, that still bring me to my point....Accuracy Shooting on a static range is just one aspect of safe weapon carrying, I applaud anyone who is a great shot, but that's only one part of responsible carry.
 

Aknazer

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Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
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California
I think you should keep in mind that while private citizens often feel they are better marksmen than police officers, (which they usually get from looking at statistics from police shootouts), remember that most private citizens judge their skills of accuracy on a shooting range, from a static or nearly static position, from a relaxed state of mind, no adrenaline rush, all the time in the world, and without the fear of the paper target shooting back. Target shooting and a fight for your life are two different beasts entirely. Police officers train for the fight of your life senario where as most PCs do not have that opportunity. Just something you might want to keep in mind.

Police use of weapons in real life situations results in an 11% bystander injury rate, compared to the 2% bystander injury rate when citizens use their guns (info from guncite.info feel free to look it up if you don't believe me). So even when citizens use their weapons in real life situations they are better shots than cops. Just something you might want to keep in mind.

Can you really compare police training (most acadamies are 6 months or longer, paramilitary style training, with rigorous shooting, case law, and DT standards) with simply reading and watching youtube videos?

I'm in the military along with many other people on this board. While I haven't been to the police academy I have served with people who have gone through the academy and they have all said AF BMT (which is often viewed as the "easiest" of the BMTs) was harder than the academy. And I can say that the military training is fairly easy. As such I don't expect a whole lot out of your academy training outside of the basics to do your job. And I even expect much of that to fade once you hit the actual force unless you make it a point to practice or you do it as a routine part of your job. I know that I've seen many people forget a good deal of what was taught at BMT (most common/quickest forgotten thing is forgetting how to march and we do it every day at BMT!) unless they do it regularly or make it a point to remember. So please quit acting like the academy is this awesome silver bullet training regime that instantly makes cops better than regular citizens. Simply going to the academy isn't going to make you good at using a weapon; and this is especially true if the cop doesn't properly practice once out of the academy. Remember, things like the academy or BMT are designed to teach people, but also for those people to pass so long as they put forward some effort.

And yes, watching reading blogs and watching videos can be comparable to a cop who went through the academy and never practiced their skills again outside of the annual qual (both might have a general idea of what to do, but neither will be very good at proper execution). The reading blogs and watching of videos can be even better should the individual then practice on their own what they read/watched even if it isn't "formal" training.
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Again, that still bring me to my point....Accuracy Shooting on a static range is just one aspect of safe weapon carrying, I applaud anyone who is a great shot, but that's only one part of responsible carry.
Hmm, I missed the part about my PD's recurring dynamic range qualification. If they saw one it was at CJA and I don't recall, twenty-ish years later, mention of one. I'm sure that DHS has paramilitarized the SWAT at some federal law enforcement training center not far away.

It was an interesting PD, with about 100 beat cops at the time, nine were named Sean, including the SWAT Lt. Dressed out, he had to turn and duck to go through a normal door without destroying it.
 

cloudcroft

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Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
1,908
Location
El Paso, TX (formerly Colorado Springs, CO)
Ryan,

With respect, I don't care a wit about results on a shooting range (whether it be "passive or dynamic"), I only care about actual shootings results (I guess being an old combat vet keeps things simple, real and practical-application for me). Citizens do quite quite without ANY training. Surprisingly well. Usually, the criminal is incapacitated if not stone-dead when the cops arrive yet the citizen is fine. Doesn't get any better than that, and I don't care if the citizens had no training as it's the RESULT that counts.

And as for that other (but related) thread here, I say NO (!) to requiring any training to exercise one's right of self-defense whether one carries CC or OC. None whatsoever! Any "training" would be voluntary and left up to the individual doing the carrying, not to anyone else. If the carrier wants to go to Thunder Ranch ($$$$) or Gunsite ($$$$), that's fine. If the shooter wants to "armchair train" ($0) that's fine too.

It's his/her choice and I don't fear such people walking around with guns -- not at all. Good for them that they ARE carrying!
 
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hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
What is the difference between a cop that is OCing and a law abiding citizen that is OCing? Absolutely nothing.

Why does it appear that the public sees them as different? Education (of the public, not the person carrying) Law enforcement is expected to OC...it is a conditioned response. If everyone that walked the streets was expected to be openly armed, there would be no public response to anyone carrying...but not everyone (even those that carry all the time) does carry openly so it is an unusual event to see an openly armed citizen.

If all the "gun control" laws were repealed, and firearms safety training was part of grade school required subjects...no one would notice anymore...a citizen Ocing would be acceptable as it is for LE.
 

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
Police use of weapons in real life situations results in an 11% bystander injury rate, compared to the 2% bystander injury rate when citizens use their guns (info from guncite.info feel free to look it up if you don't believe me). So even when citizens use their weapons in real life situations they are better shots than cops. Just something you might want to keep in mind.



I'm in the military along with many other people on this board. While I haven't been to the police academy I have served with people who have gone through the academy and they have all said AF BMT (which is often viewed as the "easiest" of the BMTs) was harder than the academy. And I can say that the military training is fairly easy. As such I don't expect a whole lot out of your academy training outside of the basics to do your job. And I even expect much of that to fade once you hit the actual force unless you make it a point to practice or you do it as a routine part of your job. I know that I've seen many people forget a good deal of what was taught at BMT (most common/quickest forgotten thing is forgetting how to march and we do it every day at BMT!) unless they do it regularly or make it a point to remember. So please quit acting like the academy is this awesome silver bullet training regime that instantly makes cops better than regular citizens. Simply going to the academy isn't going to make you good at using a weapon; and this is especially true if the cop doesn't properly practice once out of the academy. Remember, things like the academy or BMT are designed to teach people, but also for those people to pass so long as they put forward some effort.

And yes, watching reading blogs and watching videos can be comparable to a cop who went through the academy and never practiced their skills again outside of the annual qual (both might have a general idea of what to do, but neither will be very good at proper execution). The reading blogs and watching of videos can be even better should the individual then practice on their own what they read/watched even if it isn't "formal" training.

Every police department I know has an annual or 2 year inservice to practice all skills learned in the academy...police officers also hone their skills through on the job the training daily.
 

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
Ryan,

With respect, I don't care a wit about results on a shooting range (whether it be "passive or dynamic"), I only care about actual shootings results (I guess being an old combat vet keeps things simple, real and practical-application for me). Citizens do quite quite without ANY training. Surprisingly well. Usually, the criminal is incapacitated if not stone-dead when the cops arrive yet the citizen is fine. Doesn't get any better than that, and I don't care if the citizens had no training as it's the RESULT that counts.

And as for that other (but related) thread here, I say NO (!) to requiring any training to exercise one's right of self-defense whether one carries CC or OC. None whatsoever! Any "training" would be voluntary and left up to the individual doing the carrying, not to anyone else. If the carrier wants to go to Thunder Ranch ($$$$) or Gunsite ($$$$), that's fine. If the shooter wants to "armchair train" ($0) that's fine too.

It's his/her choice and I don't fear such people walking around with guns -- not at all. Good for them that they ARE carrying!

I don't feel fear any law abiding citizen who responsibly carries...a gun is nothing more than tool, but a gun is an extremely dangerous tool in the hand of a fool
 

sudden valley gunner

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Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Every police department I know has an annual or 2 year inservice to practice all skills learned in the academy...police officers also hone their skills through on the job the training daily.

Really? Wow, police shootings are not an everyday event in my State where do you live?

Well at least Birk didn't kill any other innocent bystanders when he murdered John Williams.

And I bet he is Glad he lives in Washington a state that is second in all the states and territories for its lack of prosecution and criminal charges against police officers engaged in crimes.

I don't feel fear any law abiding citizen who responsibly carries...a gun is nothing more than tool, but a gun is an extremely dangerous tool in the hand of a fool

Have you been to any OC meets yet? If not please ask the folks in your area to arrange one, this last post hints to me ( I could be wrong) that you feel you should be able to check papers to make sure someone isn't a felon, or mentally incompetent or because you just don't feel comfortable.

Also note there are strong opinions on here especially when it comes to protecting rights, you'll find that often the impression you get from someone online is a lot different when you meet them in person.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
Every police department I know has an annual or 2 year inservice to practice all skills learned in the academy...police officers also hone their skills through on the job the training daily.

So what skill is being honed when police are sleeping through their shift in a Home Depot parking lot?
 

DanieltheAnvil

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
14
Location
florida
I thanks for the Responses on my first post. I agree with most everyone here. a lot of people are scared of what they dont know. also most people are unaware of the laws concerning guns. So I personally think its our job to practice the right this country affords us and people will become more comfortable over time.
 

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
So what skill is being honed when police are sleeping through their shift in a Home Depot parking lot?


I wouldn't judge all cops on the actions of few...a few bad apples in every occupation. Alot of officers are out there everyday trying to make difference, willing to put themselves on the line for others...even for those who refuse to give respect to an individual willing to risk their lives for a complete stranger.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
I wouldn't judge all cops on the actions of few...a few bad apples in every occupation. Alot of officers are out there everyday trying to make difference, willing to put themselves on the line for others...even for those who refuse to give respect to an individual willing to risk their lives for a complete stranger.
We citizens should feel so much better, also not being judged by the actions of a few. When the ranks of the enforcers are purged of the abusers then let's talk. Until then we must remember who taught us, "You may beat the rap, but you cannot beat the ride."
 

RyanC1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
54
Location
WV
We citizens should feel so much better, also not being judged by the actions of a few. When the ranks of the enforcers are purged of the abusers then let's talk. Until then we must remember who taught us, "You may beat the rap, but you cannot beat the ride."


Again, I think you're lumping hundreds of thousands of good officers in with a few bad apples...for every bad story of police brutatlity you hear on the news 100s of good interactions between citizens and police take place. It would be like me judging every citizen as a criminal because I typically arrest more non police citizens than police officers, which by the way I have had to do before. I've heard many comments from people on here about how police shouldn't lump all citizens together and I agree, I also think officers deserve the same courtesy.
 

HighFlyingA380

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Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
301
Location
West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
Can you really compare police training (most acadamies are 6 months or longer, paramilitary style training, with rigorous shooting, case law, and DT standards) with simply reading and watching youtube videos?

You may need to re-read my post. I did state "besides initial acasemy training.". Everything you posted, i consider to be initial. For those who may have been on the force for 10 or 15 years, this initial training needs to be continued with recurrent training every few month, in my opinion. This is where watching videos and doing basic drill really helps. I relate it to what i do every day, and that is fly aiplanes. As a pilot, we are not issued our certificate, and then are on our own for 10 or 15 years. No, at the minimum, we are required to do recurrent training every 2 years. In most cases, that is reduced to every 3-6 months.
 

cloudcroft

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Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
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El Paso, TX (formerly Colorado Springs, CO)
"Again, I think you're lumping hundreds of thousands of good officers in with a few bad apples..."

But if the "good ones" won't stand up against the bad ones (maybe because they don't want to be another Serpico) then maybe they SHOULD all be lumped together -- like to so-called "good" Muslims who refuse to stand against the bad ones: To "heck" with them all!

There's still the general LEO culture/attitude of "it's us vs. them" meaning the cops against everyone else, including decent citizens -- we're kind of lumped in with criminals.

Not fair at all, is it? [a rhetorical question -- no need to answer]
 
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ncwabbit

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
670
Location
rural religious usa
i am constantly amazed at ppl's reaction and comments

when i am asked...'are you a sheriff, police, fed, etc.?' and i gently tell them no, but am allowed to OC.

Amazingly their hands go to their mouth and say "REALLY!!" or "I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!" and my favorite: "ARE YOU SURE??"

then the education process begins and while most are polite and listen, others just huff off shaking their heads muttering under their breath...'why would he need a gun...he's just looking for trouble...etc.'

i continue about my business...

wabbit

PS: concerted 30 sec tv spots would go a long way to assisting (educating) the public but won't happen as there are some who wish the controversy to continue...
 
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RyanC1985

Regular Member
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
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Location
WV
You may need to re-read my post. I did state "besides initial acasemy training.". Everything you posted, i consider to be initial. For those who may have been on the force for 10 or 15 years, this initial training needs to be continued with recurrent training every few month, in my opinion. This is where watching videos and doing basic drill really helps. I relate it to what i do every day, and that is fly aiplanes. As a pilot, we are not issued our certificate, and then are on our own for 10 or 15 years. No, at the minimum, we are required to do recurrent training every 2 years. In most cases, that is reduced to every 3-6 months.


Sorry, I guess I didn't read it closely enough...i agree completely.
 
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