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Thread: Police to rethink SWAT and/or military style raids?

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Police to rethink SWAT and/or military style raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A meeting to discuss the obvious.

    What about the other 105 deaths? Will a meeting be scheduled and held to address those?

    Won't happen....the reduction in SWAT raids and a meeting to discuss the other 105 deaths in 2011.

    I'll get the popcorn.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    The premise for SWAT raids in the evening hours, basically, no-knock raids, or the equal knock then rush in raid, are dangerous in the act themselves, than the argument that such raids are taking place because the threat in the raid is great. I think that it is dangerous that we permit SWAT to enter the homes of any citizen in the evening hours, basically, breaking in the door, and rushing in. It creates more danger, IMO, than it lessens.

    One major issue is, and I don't know about anyone else here is that if my door is kicked it, it is dark, and all I can hear are voices screaming they are the police...how the hell am I supposed to know that? Do I take my chances, and hope they are police, and not thugs raiding my home to tie me, and my family up, rob us then murder us. This is particularly the case in situation where individuals are raided, they are not criminals, and reasonably believe that it could not be the police breaking in their front door...why would they reasonably believe otherwise?--the homeowner is not a criminal, and not breaking the law, they are sitting in their home, minding their own business.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 01-11-2012 at 03:36 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    It's telling that they're only raising this question because of the cops who have died. They don't give two ***** about the innocent people they've killed.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    It's telling that they're only raising this question because of the cops who have died. They don't give two ***** about the innocent people they've killed.
    A conclusion not supported by the evidence.

    It is good that they are rethinking the procedure for whatever reason.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    If DHS had their way, local police would completely abandon military and SWAT-style tactics and simply adopt the policies and tactics of the Khmer Rouge and the Stasi They were originally set up and directed by ex-Stasi and KGB officials, after all...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-11-2012 at 07:59 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    If DHS had their way, local police would completely abandon military and SWAT-style tactics and simply adopt the policies and tactics of the Khmer Rouge and the Stasi They were originally set up and directed by ex-Stasi and KGB officials, after all...
    Good grief! Can we please put away our tinfoil hats for a couple of minutes?

    I do question why the LEO is making this a matter of LEO safety, and not mentioning that this is actually a matter of civilian safety as well.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Good grief! Can we please put away our tinfoil hats for a couple of minutes?

    WTFU, sweetie...

    http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com...kgb_spies.html

    http://thechristianobserver.blogspot...r-tyranny.html
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A conclusion not supported by the evidence.

    It is good that they are rethinking the procedure for whatever reason.
    To my knowledge there is no empirical evidence that refutes his assertion completely. It is obvious that rethinking the question is productive for both LE and the citizenry. What is not obvious is the motivation other than officer safety. If the safety of the citizenry were the top priority does it not follow that any tactics used to ensure a citizens safety would also ensure officer safety?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Thanks for the citation to the seer of our doom.

    Can we draw a parallel between the paramilitarization of our police and the federalization of our educators?
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-12-2012 at 07:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A conclusion not supported by the evidence.

    It is good that they are rethinking the procedure for whatever reason.
    Actually, I think it's pretty well supported by the evidence.

    In the majority of the "mistaken" SWAT raids of which I've heard, the police response was either callous or downright arrogant.

    Recall the raid on the home of the mayor of Berwyn Heights, MD. AFTER that raid, the police were publicly COMMENDED.

    I recall another raid, where after attacking the wrong home and making it virtually uninhabitable with CS gas, their response was to leave a bucket of cleaning supplies on the porch, as if somehow the victims had gassed THEMSELVES and it was THEIR responsibility to DECONTAMINATE their own home, using Pinesol. It was only after legal proceedings were initiated by the victims, that the city moved to repair and remediate the home themselves, and to move the victims temporarily to inhabitable quarters.

    It seems SOP for cops who attack the wrong people to have a cavalier if not outright contemptuous attitude toward their victims.
    Last edited by Deanimator; 01-12-2012 at 08:46 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    --snip-- They don't give two ***** about the innocent people they've killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A conclusion not supported by the evidence.
    --snip--
    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Actually, I think it's pretty well supported by the evidence.
    --snip--
    The comment/reply to which I was responding is bolded above.

    When we criticize others for using emotionalism, baseless conclusions, and attack any group based on a personal opinion, we are as guilty as the antis. Deal in facts gentleman - facts. Leave the suppositions and raucous verbiage to those that have nothing else to provide. I fail to understand why this methodology escapes some.

    Do I like no-knock warrants? - absolutely not. Do I know of or have evidence that they are conducted by those that would kill innocent people w/o feeling anything? Absolutely not. Have no knock warrants been the subject of serious problems? - You bet.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The comment/reply to which I was responding is bolded above.

    When we criticize others for using emotionalism, baseless conclusions, and attack any group based on a personal opinion, we are as guilty as the antis. Deal in facts gentleman - facts. Leave the suppositions and raucous verbiage to those that have nothing else to provide. I fail to understand why this methodology escapes some.

    Do I like no-knock warrants? - absolutely not. Do I know of or have evidence that they are conducted by those that would kill innocent people w/o feeling anything? Absolutely not. Have no knock warrants been the subject of serious problems? - You bet.
    Again, the evidence points to callousness at best, with some holding their victims in contempt.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The comment/reply to which I was responding is bolded above.

    When we criticize others for using emotionalism, baseless conclusions, and attack any group based on a personal opinion, we are as guilty as the antis. Deal in facts gentleman - facts. Leave the suppositions and raucous verbiage to those that have nothing else to provide. I fail to understand why this methodology escapes some.

    Do I like no-knock warrants? - absolutely not. Do I know of or have evidence that they are conducted by those that would kill innocent people w/o feeling anything? Absolutely not. Have no knock warrants been the subject of serious problems? - You bet.
    I am not sure that what you like or dislike is the point here.

    You stated "A conclusion not supported by the evidence." regarding ()pen(arry's post. Do you know that his conclusion is not supported by evidence? I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to provide facts, with cites, to support our statements. ()pen(arry not providing facts (cites) to support his conclusion does not invalidate his conclusion. Unless you have facts (cites) that refute his conclusion, then ()pen(arry's conclusion should not be classified as a baseless conclusion, derived from emotion just because he provides no facts to validate his conclusion. It is clearly his opinion and should be taken as such.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Edit: remove [ (cites) ] from the below post. Not required, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am not sure that what you like or dislike is the point here.

    You stated "A conclusion not supported by the evidence." regarding ()pen(arry's post. Do you know that his conclusion is not supported by evidence? I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to provide facts, with cites, to support our statements. ()pen(arry not providing facts (cites) to support his conclusion does not invalidate his conclusion. Unless you have facts (cites) that refute his conclusion, then ()pen(arry's conclusion should not be classified as a baseless conclusion, derived from emotion just because he provides no facts to validate his conclusion. It is clearly his opinion and should be taken as such.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    The comment/reply to which I was responding is bolded above.

    When we criticize others for using emotionalism, baseless conclusions, and attack any group based on a personal opinion, we are as guilty as the antis. Deal in facts gentleman - facts. Leave the suppositions and raucous verbiage to those that have nothing else to provide. I fail to understand why this methodology escapes some.

    Do I like no-knock warrants? - absolutely not. Do I know of or have evidence that they are conducted by those that would kill innocent people w/o feeling anything? Absolutely not. Have no knock warrants been the subject of serious problems? - You bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am not sure that what you like or dislike is the point here.

    You stated "A conclusion not supported by the evidence." regarding ()pen(arry's post. Do you know that his conclusion is not supported by evidence? I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to provide facts, with cites, to support our statements. ()pen(arry not providing facts (cites) to support his conclusion does not invalidate his conclusion. Unless you have facts (cites) that refute his conclusion, then ()pen(arry's conclusion should not be classified as a baseless conclusion, derived from emotion just because he provides no facts to validate his conclusion. It is clearly his opinion and should be taken as such.
    Yes his conclusion is not supported by evidence He didn't provide it here, where it counts. Didn't say "invalidates" - said "not supported". Nevertheless I will take another step - the remark is baseless, inflammatory and not acceptable. It violates the rules, intent, and limitations to which we all agree when posting here.

    Not all opinions are simply accepted nor excused on the grounds that they are only opinions.

    BTW - notice that I have changed hats? Prefer to moderate with a light hand unless it becomes necessary to do otherwise. It remains in my perview to do so. IMO this has now been been escalated beyond a not well thought out remark which is unfortunate as I never thought that was ()pen(arry's purpose.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Yes his conclusion is not supported by evidence He didn't provide it here, where it counts. Didn't say "invalidates" - said "not supported". Nevertheless I will take another step - the remark is baseless, inflammatory and not acceptable. It violates the rules, intent, and limitations to which we all agree when posting here.

    Not all opinions are simply accepted nor excused on the grounds that they are only opinions.

    BTW - notice that I have changed hats? Prefer to moderate with a light hand unless it becomes necessary to do otherwise. It remains in my perview to do so. IMO this has now been been escalated beyond a not well thought out remark which is unfortunate as I never thought that was ()pen(arry's purpose.
    Grapeshot are you going SOFT on us?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Grapeshot are you going SOFT on us?
    Ya think?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  20. #20
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Don't even get me started...
    That's one of the cases to which I referred.

    The cops were high-fiving each other for days after that one.

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    1st, if you have drugs in the house, I have no sympathy if you get your door kicked in, your teeth kicked in, or you dog getting blasted.
    2nd, if you do not have drugs in the house and you get your door kicked in, your teeth kicked in, or your dog get's blasted, then I 100% support you going and getting every single penny you can from the Taxpayer.
    Make sure you scream this fact as loud as you can from the tallest building you can, on every radio station you can, and every TV station you can, 'till the "professional" Law Enforcement Agencies start to perform like the professionals they are suppost to be by having all of their in one sock before they execute.

    Gig'em!

  22. #22
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brion View Post
    1st, if you have drugs in the house, I have no sympathy if you get your door kicked in, your teeth kicked in, or you dog getting blasted.
    2nd, if you do not have drugs in the house and you get your door kicked in, your teeth kicked in, or your dog get's blasted, then I 100% support you going and getting every single penny you can from the Taxpayer.
    Make sure you scream this fact as loud as you can from the tallest building you can, on every radio station you can, and every TV station you can, 'till the "professional" Law Enforcement Agencies start to perform like the professionals they are suppost to be by having all of their in one sock before they execute.

    Gig'em!
    A lot of settlements have non-disclosure clauses in them. That's why were I to be the victim of one of these raids, I'd never settle. Of course my lawyer thinks nothing of lining through and signing clauses in contracts to see if the other will let it slide.

    It needs to be common knowledge what the police are costing the community in settlements and judgments due to their negligence and malice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    The latest was this week in Ogden Utah. A drug task force raided a Iraqi veterans home on suspision he had marijiana plants. They started the raid at night around 9pm and came in on a no-knock and he shot 6 of the officers killing one before he was secured with one wound himself.

    My questions is was it necessary for a no-knock and tactical response on the rumor over a marijunia plant?

    Why didn't they do intel and find out if the suspect was going to work at wallmart at 11pm and take him down there or when he got into his car?

    In all the stories I have read and seen none of them have confirmed that they actually found any drugs. The Veterens father said his son has PTSD from Iraq and does use marijuana sometime, but is that a reason to do a tactical raid at night?

    The LEO's didn't know he was a veteran, they all filed through the front door into his killing zone, they didn't even bother to do this at a better time.

    This is all LEO's falt one of their own was killed, they handled this all wrong. When a bunch of armed gunmen break in your door you don't even have a second to decide if it is the bad guys or the cops....it used to be illegal for cops to do this to American Citizens without due process.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker
    Iraqi veteran... shot 6 of the officers killing one before he was secured with one wound himself.
    That says an awful lot about the great training he had in the military.

    was it necessary for a no-knock and tactical response on the rumor over a marijunia plant?
    Obviously not. You've given several better, less dangerous ways to handle the situation.

    LEO's... all filed through the front door into his killing zone
    Whether or not they even suspected he was a vet or had a gun, it's a dumb thing to do.

    This is all LEO's falt one of their own was killed, they handled this all wrong.
    When a bunch of armed gunmen break in your door you don't even have a second to decide if it is the bad guys or the cops...
    it used to be illegal for cops to do this to American Citizens without due process.
    I agree, though this will probably be an unpopular opinion.
    And I'm trying to find some way of rewording the "bad guys or cops" phrase w/o it being cop bashing...
    The street thugs or the people with badges who ignore the Constitution?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    The latest was this week in Ogden Utah. A drug task force raided a Iraqi veterans home on suspision he had marijiana plants. They started the raid at night around 9pm and came in on a no-knock and he shot 6 of the officers killing one before he was secured with one wound himself.

    My questions is was it necessary for a no-knock and tactical response on the rumor over a marijunia plant?

    Why didn't they do intel and find out if the suspect was going to work at wallmart at 11pm and take him down there or when he got into his car?

    In all the stories I have read and seen none of them have confirmed that they actually found any drugs. The Veterens father said his son has PTSD from Iraq and does use marijuana sometime, but is that a reason to do a tactical raid at night?

    The LEO's didn't know he was a veteran, they all filed through the front door into his killing zone, they didn't even bother to do this at a better time.

    This is all LEO's falt one of their own was killed, they handled this all wrong. When a bunch of armed gunmen break in your door you don't even have a second to decide if it is the bad guys or the cops....it used to be illegal for cops to do this to American Citizens without due process.
    How he walked away from that is a suprise to me. I'd have expect after any cop was shot that he would have been executed on the spot. But at least all the other cops in that situation had at least a little honor and didn't unload on him. Just following orders, right boys?

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