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Thread: Will I have an issue carrying lobby day?

  1. #1
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Unhappy Will I have an issue carrying lobby day?

    Well, some how I managed to lose my DL this week and feel very silly about it. I went to get a new one from the DMV and found out they mail the new copy to you and do not simply issue you one!

    So as it is I have:

    CHP
    Expired motorcycle learner's permit ID
    Expired passport

    What I do not have:
    An unexpired government issued ID

    So, two questions. One, am I excluded from Carrying inside on lobby day? Two, am I actually out of complacency for CC till I get my new unexpired ID? Must the government issued ID be current?

    I hope someone can help me navigate this one...

  2. #2
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMeVa View Post
    Well, some how I managed to lose my DL this week and feel very silly about it. I went to get a new one from the DMV and found out they mail the new copy to you and do not simply issue you one!

    So as it is I have:

    CHP
    Expired motorcycle learner's permit ID
    Expired passport

    What I do not have:
    An unexpired government issued ID

    So, two questions. One, am I excluded from Carrying inside on lobby day? Two, am I actually out of complacency for CC till I get my new unexpired ID? Must the government issued ID be current?

    I hope someone can help me navigate this one...
    IANAL but as I recall the only thing I showed last year was my CHP. They never asked fo any thing else. Hopefully the more experenced here can give a better answer.

  3. #3
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    When carrying concealed with your Va CHP, you must have one of these 3 id's with you:

    18.2-308 H

    "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "
    Last edited by ProShooter; 01-12-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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  4. #4
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    When carrying concealed with your Va CHP, you must have one of these 3 id's with you:

    18.2-308 H

    "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "
    While this applies to CC, I was thinking he would open carry Monday negating the need for ID, but to get into GA Building he would still need his CHP.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    When carrying concealed with your Va CHP, you must have one of these 3 id's with you:

    18.2-308 H

    "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "
    So I guess the question remains whether or not said identification can be expired. I would think that an expired passport meets the criteria above. Of course IANAL and could be wrong.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  6. #6
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    When carrying concealed with your Va CHP, you must have one of these 3 id's with you:

    18.2-308 H

    "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "
    That still begs the question is an expired passport ok? Virginia excepts an expired passport as a form of ID for getting your DL replaced. So the question is, does Va require the ID be current? ..or is the fact it is a government issued photo-ID enough?


    I wont be CC on lobby day.

  7. #7
    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    if it were me, absent a solid legal opinion i could bank on, i'd just stay oc until i got my new dl. did dmv say how long it would take?

  8. #8
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk4 View Post
    if it were me, absent a solid legal opinion i could bank on, i'd just stay oc until i got my new dl. did dmv say how long it would take?
    Couple of days....after lobby day. I OC mostly anyway, so that is not a problem. My real issue is lobby day and if I will have grief getting in.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    OK, I actually called the Capitol Police and asked them about it. The answer is that as far as they know the issue has never come up before. But they offered a "possible" solution - the OP should have received an electronic receipt for the renewal transaction. The Capitol Police suggested that the renewal receipt works just like the receipt for renewing your tags on-line - it covers you until the new stickers show up in the mail.

    The Officers I spoke with were very clear in stating that they did not know the answer, but thought that what they were suggesting would be accepted by any of the Capitol Police officers any visitor encountered. (No, I did not mention Lobby Day when I called.)

    So - there we have it - nobody knows for sure but there seems to be a "reasonable" solution.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  10. #10
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    OK, I actually called the Capitol Police and asked them about it. The answer is that as far as they know the issue has never come up before. But they offered a "possible" solution - the OP should have received an electronic receipt for the renewal transaction. The Capitol Police suggested that the renewal receipt works just like the receipt for renewing your tags on-line - it covers you until the new stickers show up in the mail.

    The Officers I spoke with were very clear in stating that they did not know the answer, but thought that what they were suggesting would be accepted by any of the Capitol Police officers any visitor encountered. (No, I did not mention Lobby Day when I called.)

    So - there we have it - nobody knows for sure but there seems to be a "reasonable" solution.

    stay safe.
    I did not do the renewal/replacement request online. I did it in person, I was given a stamped 'temporary permit' which is what I guess would have been available had I done it online.

    I will have the stamped temporary permit I was given with me and see that happens.

    Thank you all for your help in this matter.

    Thank you Skid.

    Will

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMeVa View Post
    I did not do the renewal/replacement request online. I did it in person, I was given a stamped 'temporary permit' which is what I guess would have been available had I done it online.

    I will have the stamped temporary permit I was given with me and see that happens.

    Thank you all for your help in this matter.

    Thank you Skid.

    Will
    Ive seen the temp ones but i dont recall them being photo. Probably if you have an expired passport with the text temporary you might be ok. Verrrrry interesting!

  12. #12
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    IANAL, but if it were me, I would carry my permit, expired license and temp copy. (unless i misunderstood....and the OP doesnt have a physical license, then carry all 2 sans expired license and a secondary form, such as a passport) You do not need ID in VA if you are only OC'ing....especially if you have a CHP on hand.

  13. #13
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    IANAL, but if it were me, I would carry my permit, expired license and temp copy. (unless i misunderstood....and the OP doesnt have a physical license, then carry all 2 sans expired license and a secondary form, such as a passport) You do not need ID in VA if you are only OC'ing....especially if you have a CHP on hand.

    I will have all that and a more. I will be OCing all day, just as I did when I had no CHP anyway. ....and I have one ace in the hole. If they bulk and wont let me carry inside. The little woman will be going to her first lobby day and she can double up if need be! She loves any excuse to have my HK

  14. #14
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sol View Post
    Ive seen the temp ones but i dont recall them being photo. Probably if you have an expired passport with the text temporary you might be ok. Verrrrry interesting!
    No no photo on the temp or it would be a non-issue.


    Again, thanks everyone....and Skidmark for checking in with the capital police.

    -Will

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    When carrying concealed with your Va CHP, you must have one of these 3 id's with you:

    18.2-308 H

    "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "
    I am not a lawyer, although I have been accused in years long passed of being a "sea lawyer".

    That being said, please note that 18.2-308 H does not contain the words "valid" or "current" in describing the forms of identification. I submit that even an expired ID would meet the requiremrnt, as written.

    Of course, those words may be implicit. I would not want to be the test case and have my fate rest on that argument.

    Still, it would have been very easy for the GA to add one of those words and remove all doubt, wouldn't it?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    SNIP

    That being said, please note that 18.2-308 H does not contain the words "valid" or "current" in describing the forms of identification. I submit that even an expired ID would meet the requiremrnt, as written.

    Of course, those words may be implicit. I would not want to be the test case and have my fate rest on that argument.

    Because we all know that government is too stupid to figure out that just because the ID expired, the holder could not have magically transformed into a different person.

    Hey! Wait a minute! I may have just stumbled on a legal justification for schizophrenia!

    "Your honor, it couldn't have been me. My ID was expired. There was no way I could have been that person."

    I mean really. Government wants you tagged, numbered, and identified. Well, if their official document that says you are you expires, then you can't possibly be you, can you?

    Bwhahahahahahahahahahaa!!!

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    I am not a lawyer, although I have been accused in years long passed of being a "sea lawyer".

    That being said, please note that 18.2-308 H does not contain the words "valid" or "current" in describing the forms of identification. I submit that even an expired ID would meet the requiremrnt, as written.

    Of course, those words may be implicit. I would not want to be the test case and have my fate rest on that argument.

    Still, it would have been very easy for the GA to add one of those words and remove all doubt, wouldn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because we all know that government is too stupid to figure out that just because the ID expired, the holder could not have magically transformed into a different person.

    Hey! Wait a minute! I may have just stumbled on a legal justification for schizophrenia!

    "Your honor, it couldn't have been me. My ID was expired. There was no way I could have been that person."

    I mean really. Government wants you tagged, numbered, and identified. Well, if their official document that says you are you expires, then you can't possibly be you, can you?

    Bwhahahahahahahahahahaa!!!

    What's really scary is that Citizen is very close to being not only right but also correct about this.

    Once it expires, your DL is both no longer valid as a permission slip and as a form of identification. DMV requires you to bring in certain proofs that you are who you say you want to be on your DL, and then if those are accepted and you pass the skill/knowledge test you get a DL. That DL is, besides being a permission slip, merely an indicator that the proofs you brought in were accepted - it is not actually a proof that you are you.

    Since most folks do not carry their birth certificate, baptismal records, passport or other accepted proofs of identification with them on a routine basis, the gooberment has created the shortcut step of accepting a proof that your proofs were OK as proof that you are really you. But that shortcut expires when your DL document expires - if you get your DL renewed you get issued a new document that serves as the shortcut.

    For those of you who are still scratching their heads and trying to figure this out, try dealing with what folks need tro do if they used to have a valid DL but for any of a number of reasons may not or no longer desire to drive. What do they do for ID when their most recent DL expires? Can they still use it? No! The gooberment came up with the non-driver photo ID document http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+46.2-345 . And that has a time limit on validity, too!

    It's really not about you being you - it's about paying the gooberment to say you are you.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  18. #18
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    "Your honor, it couldn't have been me. My ID was expired. There was no way I could have been that person."
    There are attorneys trying to manufacture this into a legal defense for criminal activity, mark my words.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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  19. #19
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    Okay, so what's the hang up on this?

    Wolf shadow has summed this up nicely. One can OC at the GA as long as they can produce a valid CHP. As long as you are OC and not CC, you do not have to have accompanying prescribed form of ID when CCing. That's it in a nutshell. That's pretty simple to me, but it can't be simple enough for the Capital Police.

    Does that mean that you won't get hassled by the Capital Police, no, they've been doing that for a long time. I don't have any doubt that they (Capital Police) don't know the answer, but that's never stopped them before. They are the proverbial horse that you can lead to water, but cannot get them to drink, no "horse sense" there, and even less common sense. It's ironic to me that they can be so physically close to the actual origination point of the law, yet not able to understand it at all.

    There is no confusion to me, on the OP's query.

    sidestreet

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  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I think they'll mistake you for a terrorist if you try to pass off a temporary permit and expired Passport......

    And shoot you on sight!


  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I think they'll mistake you for a terrorist if you try to pass off a temporary permit and expired Passport......

    And shoot you on sight!

    But he's going to carry his temporary permit and expired DL, so he should be safe.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  22. #22
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    But he's going to carry his temporary permit and expired DL, so he should be safe.

    stay safe.
    except, skid, he said he lost his DL, he didn't say it had expired. The items he has that have expired are a passport and a learners permit for a motorcycle. The temporary permit that DMV stamped is just a piece of 8.5 x 11 paper, no photo on it. At least mine didn't when I had one a few months ago and, as mine includes clearance for transporting large amounts of very hazardous materials in very large vehicles, if they allow me to drive with no photo on a temp piece of paper I can't see them going to the expense of putting one on a piece of paper for driving a car. At least he has planned to have someone with him that can take possession of his firearm if the Capitol Police decide to be uncooperative. Hopefully it won't be an issue, but at least he's prepared as best he can in the circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ...
    edited to add "I propose a new rule for the forum ... no one may use both a dancing banana and a dancing monkey in the same post"
    Last edited by scouser; 01-14-2012 at 10:39 AM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    except, skid, he said he lost his DL, he didn't say it had expired. ....

    I guess I really should have coffee before posting - or maybe just pay attention?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I guess I really should have coffee before posting - or maybe just pay attention?

    stay safe.

    If you have to "Pay" Attention,,, It is NO longer a Right!!!!
    Now you only have a privilage...
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