Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Some Advice?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Baraboo WI
    Posts
    19

    Some Advice?

    Hello everybody,

    My name is Alexander and I have been OC for about a month and a half. before I went out for my first time I read up on what I need to know and am running in to a little bit of a dilemma here. I am aware of 968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest statute that is in place. It states that "After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped."

    So here was the dilemma I was in tonight. I was at the rang in the after noon and left from Madison and was heading up to Wisconsin Dells. I had encased my .40cal Glock in the case and had it unloaded. I got to the dells and the movie theater up there has a no weapon policy so i left it in the car. After that movie I went to the Ho Chunk Casino. I already knew about the casinos no gun policy so i left it in my car encased and ammo in a different compartment. I however forgot to take my holster off. I went in and played roulette on the table for about 4 hours before I was confronted by 2 sauk county officers. The on addressed me and asked if I was conceal carrying and I stated that no I was not. My sidearm was encased in my vehicle and that I only had my holster on. He explained that someone seen the holster and someone reported it. Before the left he said now that we have that clear and you do not have a weapon can I get your ID.

    I asked him if I was obligated to show him my ID when I have done nothing wrong. he stuttered for a few seconds and then stated in the state of Wisconsin yes you do.

    Is this true? From my understanding from the 968.24 statute it states "After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped."

    So I guess I am trying to figure out if I have to because he said or better yet how would you all approach this situation? Because even as much as it draws attention, Last time I checked it was not a crime to still carry your holster with out the gun in it.

  2. #2
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Trempealeau County
    Posts
    2,187
    The officer lied to you. You were not required to show an ID.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Baraboo WI
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    The officer lied to you. You were not required to show an ID.
    So if the officer told you that in the state of Wisconsin when asked to produce Id you have too, How should I reply?

  4. #4
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Terra, Sol
    Posts
    2,779
    With the sounds of silence.

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest

    Man Without a gun!

    Which crime did the Sauk County occifers reasonably suspect? Once their suspicions were eased, you were not concealing, then you were no longer a suspect.

    Do the Sauk County occifers routinely hang out in a casino, or was this a hysterical Man Without A Gun call?

    Be careful of trespass law, it's not so simple as enFORCErs and their employers would have us believe.

    When they bluff 968.24, call their bluff, make them document the incident with custodial detention/arrest. 968.24 is satisfied by oral identification, a demand to surrender your papers, a violation of the Fourth Amen., requires a warrant or arrest. I ANAL advice is free. Get a lawyer, get the cops radio traffic with a FOIA.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-13-2012 at 04:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Baraboo WI
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Which crime did the Sauk County occifers reasonably suspect? Once their suspicions were eased, you were not concealing, then you were no longer a suspect.

    Do the Sauk County occifers routinely hang out in a casino, or was this a hysterical Man Without A Gun call?

    Be careful of trespass law, it's not so simple as enFORCErs and their employers would have us believe.

    When they bluff 968.24, call their bluff, make them document the incident with custodial detention/arrest. 968.24 is satisfied by oral identification, a demand to surrender your papers, a violation of the Fourth Amen., requires a warrant or arrest. I ANAL advice is free. Get a lawyer, get the cops radio traffic with a FOIA.
    He asked me is I was "conceal carrying" and I stated no I was not, I am aware of the Casinos policy regarding firearms inside. He then asked for my ID and I asked if I was obligated to show him my ID. He stated yes I was after he fumbled over his words for a few seconds.

    See I am totally confused because people say no I don't have to show it, but then on this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes I see Wisconsin is listed as a state that has a "Stop and Identify" thing. I guess it was a call placed to 911 about a possible man carrying a concealed gun. He stated that security could not tell weather or not there was a gun in the holster when they did a walk by.
    Last edited by arkluball; 01-13-2012 at 05:03 AM.

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    You've already done better than the Wikipedia, its citation is just to 968.24. Please talk with your personal attorney. Your rights were arguably violated, there should be a record and you should consider taking action.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    758
    No, you are not required to give any form of ID, unless of course you had done something wrong. Watch the video that was posted above... Time to file an o.r.r... Also, when did Desert Star post? I had OC'd there before Nov 1, no issues.
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

  9. #9
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Marshfield, WI
    Posts
    221
    Quote Originally Posted by arkluball View Post
    See I am totally confused because people say no I don't have to show it, but then on this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes I see Wisconsin is listed as a state that has a "Stop and Identify" thing.
    This is yet another example of why you SHOULD NOT USE WIKIPEDIA as your sole, or final source for verification of information.
    Member of Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultus habebunt...

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    968.24
    Temporary questioning without arrest.

    After
    having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer,
    a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for
    a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects
    that such person is committing, is about to commit or has com-
    mitted a crime
    , and may demand the name and address of the per-
    son and an explanation of the person’s conduct. Such detention
    and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity
    where the person was stopped.
    As others have stated, you don't need to show ID; even by this statute, as long as you aren't operating a motor vehicle (there is a small caveat with CWL but since that's not what we're talking about here...). First, the officer must have reasonable suspicion that you are committing or are about to commit a crime; this was quite obviously absent. Even having that, the statute doesn't say ID; it says "name and address". But forget about that for a minute because even though it says they may demand it; there is no penalty offered by law if you refuse!

    946.41
    Resisting or obstructing officer.

    ........blah blah blah.......

    No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or
    her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey,
    194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).
    So, WI is a "stop and ID" state; however, our stop and ID statute has no teeth.

    I am not a lawyer of course, do your own due diligence.



    P.S. I live pretty close to Baraboo myself, as do a few of the other members.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-13-2012 at 09:42 AM.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,643

    Thumbs up Attorney General's Memo....Have A Look...

    Here is a link to the memo from the Attorney General on 20APRIL2009: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/file...nCarryMemo.pdf

    Pertinent to your question: ¶9. And “even when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual, [and] ask to examine the individual's identification,” as long as the police do not convey a message that compliance is mandatory. Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 434-35 (1991). The Fourth Amendment does not prevent police from making voluntary or consensual contact with persons engaged in constitutionally protected conduct. See United States v. Mendenhall, 446 U.S. 544, 553-54 (1980). Accordingly, a law enforcement officer does not violate the Fourth Amendment by approaching an individual in public and asking questions. Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 497 (1983). An officer may approach and question someone as long as the questions, the circumstances and the officer's behavior do not convey to the subject that he must comply with the requests. Bostick, 501 U.S. at 435-36. The person approached need not answer any questions. As long as he or she remains free to walk away, there has been no intrusion on liberty requiring a particularized and objective Fourth Amendment justification. See Mendenhall, 446 U.S. at 554.
    5


    The police lied to you. They do it all the time...due to ignorance or outright lies...never talk to the police.

    Added: Never use Wikipedia.
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 01-13-2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason: added comment
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Added: Never use Wikipedia.
    Meh, Wiki is pretty useful for a lot of things. It also provides sources at the bottom of the articles so if you have a problem with the information you can check for yourself. Lastly, if something is incorect; someone should edit the page, that's what Wiki is for.

    Here's the pertinent section from the Wiki article:
    Interaction with other laws

    In states whose “stop and identify laws” do not directly impose penalties, a lawful arrest must be for violation of some other law, such as one to the effect of “resisting, obstructing, or delaying a peace officer”. For example, the Nevada “stop and identify” law challenged in Hiibel did not impose a penalty on a person who refused to comply, but the Justice Court of Union Township, Nevada, determined that Hiibel’s refusal to identify himself[24] constituted a violation of Nevada’s “obstructing” law.[25] A similar conclusion regarding the interaction between Utah’s “stop and identify” and “obstructing” laws was reached in Oliver v. Woods (10th Cir. 2000).
    There's no reason it can't be edited in a fashion similar to this:

    Interaction with other laws

    In states whose “stop and identify laws” do not directly impose penalties, a lawful arrest must be for violation of some other law, such as one to the effect of “resisting, obstructing, or delaying a peace officer”. For example, the Nevada “stop and identify” law challenged in Hiibel did not impose a penalty on a person who refused to comply, but the Justice Court of Union Township, Nevada, determined that Hiibel’s refusal to identify himself[24] constituted a violation of Nevada’s “obstructing” law.[25] A similar conclusion regarding the interaction between Utah’s “stop and identify” and “obstructing” laws was reached in Oliver v. Woods (10th Cir. 2000). In Wisconsin, the court decided that the opposite was true in Henes v. Morrissey,194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995). No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction.
    So, if someone wants to edit the Wiki to show this, more power to them.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-13-2012 at 10:40 AM.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Under your bed
    Posts
    542
    Welcome to the fourm Alexander!
    Last edited by Jason in WI; 01-13-2012 at 11:33 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Terra, Sol
    Posts
    2,779
    Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey,
    194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995)


    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,322
    I wouldn't tell them about the firearm in the car as they do not need to know it is there. Perhaps someone else can answer this, isn't the casino part of tribal land?

    If an officer ever asks if you are conceal carrying, reply with, "As you can clearly see I am not," or, "What is your reasonable articulate suspicion (RAS)?"

    Read this thread: Identifying ourselves to police?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  16. #16
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    If an officer ever asks if you are conceal carrying, reply with ... "What is your reasonable articulate suspicion (RAS)?"
    An enforcer not under penalty of perjury is not bound to the truth, nor is he bound to dispute with a suspect citizen.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over the Rainbow
    Posts
    974
    You might also want to review This Thread regarding the types of detentions and stops. There is lots of info regarding what courts rule to be casual consensual encounters and what is defined as an investigatory stop.

    The most difficult issue, is overcoming the fear and intimidation!
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 01-13-2012 at 01:51 PM.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

  18. #18
    Regular Member Nam-Vet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin/Mfld.
    Posts
    32
    I could be wrong but I thought having a firearm on tribal land or a tribal casino property was a BIG no no.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Nam-Vet View Post
    I could be wrong but I thought having a firearm on tribal land or a tribal casino property was a BIG no no.
    Found a draft of the Ho-Chunk code. It appears you may store a weapon in your vehicle in the parking lot but it must be unloaded and encased. With exceptions for LEO and such, you must also have a CWL or be a hunter. In the case of a hunter, the weapon must be appropriate for the current hunting seasons...blah blah blah.

    http://ho-chunknation.com/UserFiles/...ED - FINAL.pdf
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-13-2012 at 02:57 PM.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  20. #20
    Regular Member Nam-Vet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin/Mfld.
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Found a draft of the Ho-Chunk code. It appears you may store a weapon in your vehicle in the parking lot but it must be unloaded and encased. With exceptions for LEO and such, you must also have a CWL or be a hunter. In the case of a hunter, the weapon must be appropriate for the current hunting seasons...blah blah blah.

    http://ho-chunknation.com/UserFiles/...ED - FINAL.pdf
    Good info. to know.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sun Prairie
    Posts
    240
    Not related to the gun but you're inside a casino, at a gambling table, in a state with a min gambling age of 21. Seems like they could have demanded some type of ID or forced you out the door.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over the Rainbow
    Posts
    974
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandil View Post
    Not related to the gun but you're inside a casino, at a gambling table, in a state with a min gambling age of 21. Seems like they could have demanded some type of ID or forced you out the door.

    Hmm a bit of presumptions there. I'm glad your not law enforcement. RAS must be based on reasonable facts or information, not hunches or curiosity based "investigations."
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 01-13-2012 at 05:43 PM.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Baraboo WI
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandil View Post
    Not related to the gun but you're inside a casino, at a gambling table, in a state with a min gambling age of 21. Seems like they could have demanded some type of ID or forced you out the door.
    Yes everytime I do enter the Casino I am confronted by security for an ID just to check my age. Normally they have a security officer by the main entrance.

    Found a draft of the Ho-Chunk code. It appears you may store a weapon in your vehicle in the parking lot but it must be unloaded and encased. With exceptions for LEO and such, you must also have a CWL or be a hunter. In the case of a hunter, the weapon must be appropriate for the current hunting seasons...blah blah blah.

    http://ho-chunknation.com/UserFiles/...ED - FINAL.pdf
    Yep, Before I have even started OC, I talked with security about the policy and they informed me that yes you can store it in your vehicle but you may not bring a firearm in the building.

  24. #24
    Regular Member theoicarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    baraboo, wisconsin
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by Nam-Vet View Post
    Good info. to know.
    All of this information and laws, not to mention the NO Weapons signs on the doors. How could two people have been robbed at gun point on Casino property with all these signs?
    The criminal was sentenced last week in court to 7 years prison I believe.
    I obey all signs and shop elsewhere, which includes the casinos.
    The way that you wander is the way that you choose,
    The day that you tarry, is the day that you lose!

  25. #25
    Regular Member jeff niles's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Milton, WI
    Posts
    68

    Red face Casino and guns

    I was at DeJope in Madison with my WI carry tee shirt on and was hassled four separate times in one night. On an another day was hassled for having my holster and WI carry tee shirt on. I was told no firearms can be in your vehicle in the casino parking lots and property. I talked to security about wearing my tee shirt and asked if it was against the law to wear a tee shirt and they said no. I told them to stop harassing me for wearing my WI carry tee shirt. Has anyone else had any problems?
    JEFFEMT

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •