Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: Handgun stopping power

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    276

    Handgun stopping power

    Something that might other might have an interest in.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    When I walk into a store, the gun counter never fails to stop me in my tracks, doesn't seem to make much difference what I.m doing or who Im with at the time.

    Stopping power, guns haz it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Chesterfield Township, MI
    Posts
    1,137
    If you are really interested in how a bullet works and the hows and why's of the subject you can't find a better book than " Understanding Firearm Ballistics, by Robert A. Rinker." One of the things he covers is the RII Relitive Incapacitation Index, the Federal Bureau of Investigation Tests, The Hatcher Formula Relitive Stopping Power Index. It can be found at Barne's & Noble for 25.00. Best book I ever bought about how guns and bullets work.

    " One of the situations he goes into is this one.

    This happened in Indianna, a man walks into a restruant that is busy with the dinner crowd. The robber with a pistol approaches the cashier and demands all the money in the cash drawer. Saying the robber is high on drugs is like saying the Pope is religious. Apparently he was in another world. What he would do with his handgun or how many people he would kill was unknown and unpredictable. What happened next is also unpredictable.

    The restruant owner was armed with a firearm that, from a standpoint of terminal ballistics, would be considered excellant. He had a short barreled .357 magnum loaded with 125gr JHP this round has an RII of 44.4 and a ranking of number 4. While some will disagree with this it is still an excellent defense load.

    A normal person would not be able to withstand many hits from such a weapon, but drugs change a body until the reaction is abnormal.

    Whe the crook was ordered to drop his weapon he continued to threaten the life of everyone around him. He then absorbed 18 hits mostly in the chest, before he went down. And no that is not a typo or mistake. It was reported and observed that the store owner reloaded his 6 shot revolver twice."

    And there are several others also. The info he puts in his book is easy to understand and apply, anyone with an interest in self defense should get this book.
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 01-14-2012 at 03:32 PM.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  4. #4
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Dewitt, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    288
    I have been interested in a five seven lately. To bad he didnt have any data about the 5.7x28mm round. Anybody know about any tests that have looked at that round vs more common SD rounds?
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 01-17-2012 at 08:00 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I have been interested in a five seven lately. To bad he didnt have any data about the 5.7x28mm round. Anybody know about any tests that have looked at that round vs more common SD rounds?
    I hear it does very well against body armor. Key factors to consider:

    1. Availability of ammo
    2. Price of gun

    On a side note, I fulfilled a fantasy this weekend at Freedom Firearms; I fondled an PS-90.

    I <3 Star Gate SG-1.
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-17-2012 at 08:48 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Chesterfield Township, MI
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I hear it does very well against body armor. Key factors to consider:

    1. Availability of ammo
    2. Price of gun

    On a side note, I fulfilled a fantasy this weekend at Freedom Firearms; I fondled an PS-90.

    I <3 Star Gate SG-1.
    Thats with the AP rounds FN makes. The regular stuff we can get is stopped by IIA and IIIA vests. But you do get a lot of it up tp 30 rounds with the extended magazine.And the gun comes with 3 20 round mags. Also its still a .22 caliber round I personally believe its on the light side for self defense.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Thats with the AP rounds FN makes. The regular stuff we can get is stopped by IIA and IIIA vests. But you do get a lot of it up tp 30 rounds with the extended magazine.And the gun comes with 3 20 round mags. Also its still a .22 caliber round I personally believe its on the light side for self defense.
    It's lighter than .22. That being said it whistles at 3500 FPS.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Portage, MI
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I have been interested in a five seven lately. To bad he didnt have any data about the 5.7x28mm round. Anybody know about any tests that have looked at that round vs more common SD rounds?
    I know someone who has one. Ammo is expensive on it. But the gun is VERY light. I have had some issues with the first 1-3 round being reliable but that COULD be because all the mags have the extra 10 round thing attached. The gun shoots like an angry .22 and can go through light body armor from what I have been told. If you have the money for the gun and ammo it's a good gun to have.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Regular Member r1dramma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    117
    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I have been interested in a five seven lately. To bad he didnt have any data about the 5.7x28mm round. Anybody know about any tests that have looked at that round vs more common SD rounds?
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh....php?p=1605762

    Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk Xparent Blue!

  10. #10
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Dewitt, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I hear it does very well against body armor. Key factors to consider:

    1. Availability of ammo
    2. Price of gun

    On a side note, I fulfilled a fantasy this weekend at Freedom Firearms; I fondled an PS-90.

    I <3 Star Gate SG-1.
    I have been looking for ammo when i go out. Its not at walmart but every gun shop has it and it is available online all over the place. Price of gun is high but I have enought $400-$500 guns time to start collecting pieces worth something.

  11. #11
    Regular Member r1dramma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    117
    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Thats with the AP rounds FN makes. The regular stuff we can get is stopped by IIA and IIIA vests. But you do get a lot of it up tp 30 rounds with the extended magazine.And the gun comes with 3 20 round mags. Also its still a .22 caliber round I personally believe its on the light side for self defense.
    I own the gun and no it isn't a
    . 22. The best self defense ammo you can get for it is the elite ammunition s4 & s5, which are a bit expensive but the ss197 which is the regular ammo for the the range, that I have bought on line for as little as 19$ for a box of 50. I have put well over a 1000 rnds and have not had any problems and that's my daily oc & cc carry gun.




    Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk Xparent Blue!

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids
    Posts
    1,018
    Quote Originally Posted by r1dramma View Post
    I own the gun and no it isn't a
    . 22. The best self defense ammo you can get for it is the elite ammunition s4 & s5, which are a bit expensive but the ss197 which is the regular ammo for the the range, that I have bought on line for as little as 19$ for a box of 50. I have put well over a 1000 rnds and have not had any problems and that's my daily oc & cc carry gun.




    Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk Xparent Blue!
    5.7mm = .224" nominal diameter, so, yes, it is.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    5.7mm = .224" nominal diameter, so, yes, it is.
    I believe he was referring to the .22 LR
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I believe he was referring to the .22 LR
    I think he was referring to NCGRDOOEIJSOHHTO34987384779834's comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Also its still a .22 caliber round
    NCGROEHRHOEHFOEHOSDJ84759 stated it was a .22 caliber (22 hundredths of an inch in diameter) round....which it is.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  15. #15
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Dewitt, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    288
    A 22 that hits like a 44.

  16. #16
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Allow me to fill in some info and correct a few misconceptions. First of all, the ammunition sold by Elite Ammunition is very effective. It is way better than the SSxxx stuff sold by FN. The ranking of their SD ammo is roughly:

    T6 > S4M > ProtecTOR II > ProtecTOR I > ProtecTOR III

    Second of all, 5.7 x 28 ammo isn't all expensive. Last month I bought 1,000 rds of SS197 for $318 from Cabella's ($159/500 rds), and that included two free metal military-style ammo cans (each ammo can can hold about 2,100 5.7 rds). Not a bad deal, $15/box 50, and on par with what you'd pay for common caliber ammo, plus a couple of $10 ammo cans. Most EA self-defense ammo (S4M, Pro series) is about $1/rd, T6 is $1.69/rd.

    I posted the following on MGO a while back.

    +++++

    Here are just a few videos to show some modern loads for the 5.7. There are more. Shooting through a car and then into meat? Shooting through denim? With modern rounds such as EA manufactures (S4, S4M, T6, etc.) the results are pretty devastating. These don't even include other rounds such as the ProtecTOR series (ProtecTOR, ProtecTOR II, ProtecTOR III).

    This website only allows one embedded video per message, so you will have to click on each of the other videos.

    Here's some metal 'n meat testing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoMMbEiC63o

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONgYlKvgVHk

    Here's some comparison tests in clay against .45ACP Hydra-Shock

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opphm-17JfA

    Here's firing through a windshield into clay.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6cC9mtoFJs

    S4M into ballistics gel.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygayGi4a-NU

    Hi Speed vid from Brass Fetcher ballistic lab on T6.



    Hi Speed vid from Brass Fetcher ballistic lab on S4M.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1xmYv7x4v0

    I could post more. Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing writes: Due to their higher kinetic energy densities, [even standard SSxxx cartridges] offer greater potential to disable the skeletal system of an attacker when compared to conventional handguns. This, coupled with a higher magazine capacity than a conventional handgun make the 5.7x28mm cartridge a very reasonable choice for civilian self-defense.

    I carry rounds better than the standard SSxxx cartridges. I use EA for carry and SS197 for practice. But even standard SS195/197 are nothing to sneeze at!

    The Five-seveN is not heavy. Fully loaded (20+1) it weighs less than a Glock or Sigma .40S&W carrying 15 or 16 rounds, and it shoots like a dream.

    I carried a .40S&W for fifteen years. Then I carried a .45ACP for two years. Now I carry a Five-seveN (with a .40S&W BUG). Carry what you want. I choose the Five-seveN for my primary. I feel fully confident in this platform.
    Last edited by griffin; 01-17-2012 at 06:24 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  17. #17
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Chesterfield Township, MI
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    A 22 that hits like a 44.
    Well I'd stick with the .44

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It's lighter than .22. That being said it whistles at 3500 FPS.
    Max muzzle velocity is right around 2200.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I think he was referring to NCGRDOOEIJSOHHTO34987384779834's comment:



    NCGROEHRHOEHFOEHOSDJ84759 stated it was a .22 caliber (22 hundredths of an inch in diameter) round....which it is.

    Bronson
    Thank you bronson for the rather eloquent use of my obviously long screen name..
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by wardog4life View Post
    .22 caliber bullet has killed more americans then any other round...
    cite?

  19. #19
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,251

    Lightbulb

    The importance of shot placement.Any round placed center mass that will travel through to the spine will do!CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Max muzzle velocity is right around 2200.
    I saw that -- out of the Five SeveN. Out of the PS-90 it is significantly faster.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids
    Posts
    1,018
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    cite?
    Don't know about Americans, but it's got a pretty good record on North Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghans.....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Chesterfield Township, MI
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I saw that -- out of the Five SeveN. Out of the PS-90 it is significantly faster.
    Maybe a gain of 100 fps, still not 3500. I doubt you could force enough propellent into such a small case to get that type of speed. There is a lot of misinformation about this round due to the fact the Brady's named it the "cop killer" round.
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 01-18-2012 at 11:22 PM.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    You're right NG, that would cause a certain overpressure. I wouldn't want to be on the same range with a gun that was loaded with such a cartridge. An OCSD deputy told me that you can't get AP rounds for a 5.7 unless you are LEO or military, and even then, they are 5 bucks each.

  25. #25
    Regular Member r1dramma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    117
    Written back in 08, have them try it again with Elite Ammunition!

    Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk Xparent Blue!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •