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Mandatory Training for OC and CC

Aknazer

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By using your definition it is still an infringement. By requiring me to get training in order to carry my weapon you are encroaching on it.

Encroach - to advance beyond proper, established, or usual limits; make gradual inroads

The training requirement would be "make(ing) gradual inroads" against that right. Remember, the first step is simply requiring training. From there the eventual move (regardless of it's in 6 months or 50 years) is to start making the requirements more and more restrictive. Eventually you end up with a situation where the requirements are so restrictive that the average citizen can't exercise that "right" and it is no longer a right, but a privledge.
 

hermannr

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The State of Washington has no license required for OC (forever), and no training required, shall issue, for CC (since 1961). If you can legally own a firearm here in WA, you can obtain a CPL, and almost 350,000 have.

You don't hear of a lot of problems with law abiding citizens mishandling firearms here. Much more likely to hear about the law enforcement community, who are "highly trained", having a problem...yes, I mean accidents.

So, to answer your question: It appears to me that putting the responsibility on the citizen to learn how to properly be responsible for knowing the laws, and also the care and feeding of their own weapons, it works.

Laws and "one size fits all" never work perfectly, and only occationally do they work properly. Then you have Article 1 Section 24 of the Washington state constitution as well as the 2A to contend with.
 
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SouthernBoy

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The question was, "Should all citizens, whether they carry openly or concealed, be made to attend and successfully pass standardized training in order to carry?" It seems most of the folks here believe that to require such training would violate Amendment II of our Constitution, and I can understand their concerns in that regard. However, my life has been dedicated to playing 'devil's advocate', and why should today be any different? ;)

Definition of INFRINGE (courtesy of Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

transitive verb

1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <infringe a patent>

2: obsolete: defeat, frustrate


My problem would be that there are those who would drive themselves - and everybody around them - absolutely nuts trying to define (or, in some cases, redefine) the word "standardized"... but, I'll come back to that later.

I don't see requiring training ("standardized" probably at the state level - it would be a 10th Amendment "States rights" issue) as an infringement upon our right to "keep and bear arms". Most of the things we keep, we keep in or around our domicile. If I am "keeping" guns, I certainly won't have them all on my person. And, in this instance anyway, the "bearing of arms" is synonymous with "the carrying of arms" (the available definitions of the word "bear" deal primarily with large, fur-covered omnivores). I don't see anything in Amendment II that protects, permits - or even encourages - the unskilled presentation and discharge of those arms. Do we simply assume those abilities are invisibly included, or 'understood', in 2A? I would support standardized training of some kind, HOWEVER... there would have to be a stipulation that no goverment agency (at whatever level) may charge additional fees or taxes for the conduct of such training and certification, above those already paid for government services. As I see it, to charge for such training and certification is where the 'infringement' would come in. Such training would have to be provided pro bono (for public good, not to be confused with Cher's late ex) and therefore supporting our 2nd Amendment right.

Now, back to the word "standardized". If the word itself were standardized, there would be little discussion over its meaning! But, it ain't, so there. Here's what I believe comes closest to what we would take as our meaning when used with the object word "training": Standardized: verb (used with object) 1. to bring to or make of an established standard size, weight , quality, strength, or the like. (Color added for emphasis - we would be looking for consistent quality in this type of training). The language which we generally refer to as "English" is actually American English, but it is no more or no less complex than is British English and - because of its complexity - we lean toward disagreement over the semantics of an argument rather than its intent.

Anyway, my bottom line on the question is, I don't believe a training requirement alone would be an 'infringement' upon 2A for the above reasons. I do believe that placing any sort of fee or tax on that training would then make the requirement an infringement. Pax!

For centuries, people have been led down the path of evil under the pretext of trusting a government. Personally, I prefer the concept and ideas of our Founders in such matters. They didn't trust government and neither do I.
 

RyanC1985

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If it is a matter of training than why do police have a higher ratio of collateral damage than those acting in pure self defense or are not in the position of a LEO?

Just something to mull over.

1. Police as dispatched to active shooters situation where private citizens can walk away

2. Police rarely have the element of surprise given the uniform

3. Police deal with the violent people of society more regularly than private citizens

4. Most private citizen shootings involve home protection from a defensive position with the homefront advantage

These are just a couple reasons...plenty more to choose from if that's not enough.
 

RyanC1985

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LEOs are trained to go into situations where they are more than likely to encounter violence and the need to at least draw, if not shoot, their firearm. Very few "ordinary citizens" (as opposed to just what makes LEOs or anybody else "extraordinary"?) intentionally go into a situation that is known to be dangerous. A small number do find themselves in such a situation in spite of their desire and attempt to avoid it.

That (among many other reasons) is why cops go through the sort of training the OP describes. Some states require that the basics of self-defense law be covered in a formal training process before you get your permission slip to carry concealed. No state (that I am aware of) requires any training to carry openly. It all seems to go back to the notion of who intentionally goes into situations and who tries to avoid situations where it may become necessary to shoot another person.

While I would rather that everyone (not just gun owners, or just gun carriers) receive training in the skillset of shooting a handgun at a human being who is actively trying to cause death or serious bodily harm, I understand that it aint gonna happen. Seeing as how low the probability is that any given non-LEO gun owner will get into a them-or-me life-or-death shooting situation, I'm OK with them winging it. At least the non-LEO can be helf both criminally and civilly liable for bullets that go where they should not. LEOs, with all their vaunted training, get a free pass.

LEOs train regularly to do stuff they encounter regularly. Some gun owners/users train at some competence level and some frequency to do stuff they may never in their lives encounter. Which group "needs" to train?

stay safe.


Actually, LEOs don't get a free pass, i'm legally responsible for any collertal damage I cause
 

skidmark

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Actually, LEOs don't get a free pass, i'm legally responsible for any collertal damage I cause


This is not the time or place to discuss qualified immunity, but that's what I'm talking about. You haz it, I don't.

stay safe.
 

RyanC1985

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I'd also like to point out that you can have a right that require certain conditions to be followed:

Example, we have the right to free speech, however, if that speech incites others to riot or commit violence it is no longer a right

we have the right to protest, but we cannot impede public roadways due to safety concerns for police, fire, and EMTs; many places also require obtaining a permit for a gathering of people over a certain number.

we have the right to practice any religion we want as long as it doesn't harm or restrict others in their belief. examples of certain religious stipulations would be no polygamy, no live sacrifices, and no underage marriage

we have the right to vote, but in order to vote men must sign up for the draft, and everyone must register before a certain deadline in order to particpate in the election.


Rights are inalienable, but with rights come responsiblity...requiring training doesn't infringe a right, it ensures everyone practicing their right does so with a firm foundation for safety and proficiency
 

RyanC1985

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This is not the time or place to discuss qualified immunity, but that's what I'm talking about. You haz it, I don't.

stay safe.

Qualified immunity is something you recieve from a district attorney....you're thinking of tort protection
 

ManInBlack

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Rights are inalienable, but with rights come responsiblity...requiring training doesn't infringe a right, it ensures everyone practicing their right does so with a firm foundation for safety and proficiency

According to who?

No offense, but I don't want you or any other man walking the earth to make a determination of when, where, and in what manner my rights may be exercised according to your arbitrary definition of a "firm foundation for safety and proficiency."

See the problem here?
 

RyanC1985

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According to who?

No offense, but I don't want you or any other man walking the earth to make a determination of when, where, and in what manner my rights may be exercised according to your arbitrary definition of a "firm foundation for safety and proficiency."

See the problem here?

You already accept some rules as to who should and shouldn't carry. Examples would be age requirement of 21 or 18 years old depending on where you are. You can't be a felon, you could never have belonged to a hate group (whether you commited a crime on the hate group's behalf or not).

I think we all agree that 12 year olds should not be walking around with a gun on their hip...I just believe age doesn't make you a safe gun handler, knowledge and training does.
 

xd shooter

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According to who?

No offense, but I don't want you or any other man walking the earth to make a determination of when, where, and in what manner my rights may be exercised according to your arbitrary definition of a "firm foundation for safety and proficiency."

See the problem here?

Exactly. Would you deny a disabled person who can't walk to the range line the means to defend themselves? What about someone who can't afford your "training"? Because they don't have a lot of money, they no longer have their 2nd amendment right?

No. Training should never be a REQUIREMENT to the god given right to personal self defense.

Police, YES of course! The job requires you to carry, therefore training is mandatory. Obviously, as has been pointed out, training is no guarantee of proficiency OR safety as evidenced by the numerous reports of ND's and "accidents" involving cops and guns.
 

RyanC1985

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Exactly. Would you deny a disabled person who can't walk to the range line the means to defend themselves? What about someone who can't afford your "training"? Because they don't have a lot of money, they no longer have their 2nd amendment right?

No. Training should never be a REQUIREMENT to the god given right to personal self defense.

Police, YES of course! The job requires you to carry, therefore training is mandatory. Obviously, as has been pointed out, training is no guarantee of proficiency OR safety as evidenced by the numerous reports of ND's and "accidents" involving cops and guns.

No I wouldn't deny a guy who couldn't walk because there are disabled range, However, just like I would deny a driver's license to someone who was legally blind, I would deny a firearm to an individual who proved that they couldn't wield or shoot the gun safely.
 

Dreamer

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I'm glad that you've appointed yourself to determine who is fit to exercise their inalienable rights.

You are missing the point ENTIRELY of my comment...

What I am saying is that HUMAN RIGHTS require no competency test--ANY of them--speech, self-defense, the press, practicing a religion.

People should be free, IMO, to do whatever they want in these regards, as long as it doesn't hurt another human, or as long as they don't attempt to use their rights to abridge the same rights of others.

I don't care if someone can't spell, or if they are a completely deluded, kool-aid drinking anti--they can still post their thoughts on a forum--REGARDLESS of how stupid or wrong they are. In the end, truth will out.

I don't care how wacky or strange someone's religious beliefs are--if they want to dance naked in the woods and pray to the Aqua Buddha all night, that's fine with me as long as they don't keep me up with their noise.

And I don't care if someone can't hit the broad side of a thug with a revolver at 7 meters--they STILL have the RIGHT to defend themselves.

In a perfect world, everyone who wanted to exercise a right would have the intelligence, skill, and devotion to develop competency in whatever activity they were practicing.

But we live in an imperfect world, and although all people are created equally in the eyes of their Creator, all men are not equal. If they were, I could slam dunk a basketball, and Janet Napolitano could open her mouth on camera without uttering a lie every single time, Miller could make good beer, and the Md State Police could offer factual evidence when they give testimonies before the General Assembly...

Different people have different competencies, different skill levels, and different measures of devotion to practicing their activities. Lack of Todd Jarrett level skill with a 1911 should not be a reason to deny a human being their fundamental human right to self defense.

Just like being capable of stringing more than two sentences together, creating a logically sound argument, or being well-versed in history shouldn't be a mandatory requirement for posting on this forum.

Such things would be nice, but in our imperfect world full of imperfect people, such a situation is simply not possible.

I'm willing to give people slack on competency if they are acting out of good intentions--ESPECIALLY with regards to self-defense.

But you are right, perhaps I am a little less liberal with my attitude toward illiterate, uneducated, and politically uninformed people who post on Internet fora. I may chide, correct, or even berate them, but I would not support them being banned just because they can't spell, formulate a logical argument, or get their history straight. In fact, I often defend people's right to post ignorant, misinformed, or stupid-sounding things. I may correct them, but I support their right to freely spew their ignorance for all to see...
 
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sawah

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Jan 22, 2011
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Virginia
You already accept some rules as to who should and shouldn't carry. Examples would be age requirement of 21 or 18 years old depending on where you are. You can't be a felon, you could never have belonged to a hate group (whether you commited a crime on the hate group's behalf or not).

I think we all agree that 12 year olds should not be walking around with a gun on their hip...I just believe age doesn't make you a safe gun handler, knowledge and training does.

The hell you say.

True-Grit-Movie-Image-1.jpg
 

RyanC1985

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"That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

This is all I need. Section 13 of my state's constitution. I do spend time and money training and learning about my state's laws regarding the carrying of firearms and their use in my defense. But the bottom line is what the Founders deemed to be written and cast in stone.

I agree completely....notice the section where is says "well regulated" (trained) and "trained to arms." Our founding fathers knew the importance of arming the people. They also knew the importance of knowing how to handle those weapons.
 

ManInBlack

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You already accept some rules as to who should and shouldn't carry. Examples would be age requirement of 21 or 18 years old depending on where you are. You can't be a felon,

Who said I accept those so-called rules? FYI, the age limit to carry is as low as 14 in some states. Might want to educate yourself before you spout off.

As for felons, I believe that if a person is too dangerous to own a gun, he is too dangerous to walk freely in the places my family goes. He is much too dangerous to have access to a motor vehicle, power tools, potentially poisonous or explosive household chemicals, etc. Execute or keep in prison until the threat is neutralized (this is assuming that the person committed an actual crime against persons or property). Once free, a man should have all the rights of any other free citizen.

you could never have belonged to a hate group (whether you commited a crime on the hate group's behalf or not).

Cite, please.

I think we all agree that 12 year olds should not be walking around with a gun on their hip...I just believe age doesn't make you a safe gun handler, knowledge and training does.

You just contradicted yourself. If age doesn't determine whether a person possesses safe gun handling skills, but knowledge and training do, who are you to say that, categorically, all twelve year-olds should not be openly carrying weapons? Are you able to somehow psychically assess the maturity level of every twelve year-old in America?

That being said, there is a time and place for everything. For my own children, I could maybe see a twelve year-old carrying a gun on his hip on the hunt, but not in the street. However, it is not my place to judge another person's parenting style (or anything else, for that matter) so long as it does not injure nor present a direct threat to my life, liberty and property. School shootings have taught us that those "children" who have malicious intent will act upon it, regardless of the laws. They have cast their lot; and just as with any other criminal, that is why we carry.
 

Dreamer

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Qualified immunity is something you recieve from a district attorney....you're thinking of tort protection

Actually, qualified immunity is something that is granted through legislative fiat, and AUTOMATICALLY goes into effect the minute the badge gets pinned on. It can only be dissolved by a judge or prosecutor if it is proven that the person was acting under color of law, or with full knowledge they were violating the law...
 

SavageOne

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Oct 8, 2009
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SEMO, , USA
I'd also like to point out that you can have a right that require certain conditions to be followed:

Example, we have the right to free speech, however, if that speech incites others to riot or commit violence it is no longer a right

we have the right to protest, but we cannot impede public roadways due to safety concerns for police, fire, and EMTs; many places also require obtaining a permit for a gathering of people over a certain number.

we have the right to practice any religion we want as long as it doesn't harm or restrict others in their belief. examples of certain religious stipulations would be no polygamy, no live sacrifices, and no underage marriage

we have the right to vote, but in order to vote men must sign up for the draft, and everyone must register before a certain deadline in order to particpate in the election.


Rights are inalienable, but with rights come responsiblity...requiring training doesn't infringe a right, it ensures everyone practicing their right does so with a firm foundation for safety and proficiency


It does infringe on the right since it would be the government who decides the level of safety and proficiency needed to pass the required training. You are correct about the limitations placed on the other rights you listed, but you fail to see that they are infringements. The only protected right enumerated in the Constitution Of The United States is the Second Amendment, because it specifically states that the right shall not be infringed(read limited).

Also Sir, please show me anywhere in the COTUS were it says I have to be responsible. People like to throw the word responsible around alot, but generally what they really mean is, others acting in a manner they agree with. Just because someone isn't holding themselves to a standard I hold myself to doesn't mean they are any less "responsible" than I. Society defines what it deems to be acceptable behavior with laws, and I can live with that. I will choose what is legal over what is considered responsible any day.
 

ManInBlack

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You are missing the point ENTIRELY of my comment...

My post wasn't directed at you. It was directed at donny's statist and elitist answer the question posed in the OP. Lol.

Originally Posted by donny Yes. Except even training wouldn't make a lot of people on this board fit to carry.


Originally Posted by ManInBlack I'm glad that you've appointed yourself to determine who is fit to exercise their inalienable rights.
 

SouthernBoy

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I agree completely....notice the section where is says "well regulated" (trained) and "trained to arms." Our founding fathers knew the importance of arming the people. They also knew the importance of knowing how to handle those weapons.

Incidentally, the phrase "well regulated" in the late 1700's meant, "to keep and make regular". It did not mean to train and drill on a regular basis. That interpretation has developed in more recent vernacular. (source, Judge Andrew Napolitano)


The thrust of the arguments of most of the responders on this thread do have a common theme and that is the distrust of government and/or one of its agencies to be the arbitor of training and subsequently permitting citizens to own and carry firearms. It has been the history of governments down through the ages, and ours is no different here, to start off with good intentions but wind up with evil results.

Who's to say what might happen two administrations removed from the current one? Suppose there are several more 911's in the next eight years. Once the nose of the government is under the tent, all that remains is a crisis for him to drag the rest of his body, along with his entire family, into the arena with him. Training requirements could be changed, made more difficult, more costly, and perhaps even made to be based upon a show of need.

The only thing that stands between despotism and liberty is a well armed populous. A government that fears the People governs best. Training, licensing, storage requirements, carry restrictions... all of these are infringements and all can and do lead to disarmament. Despots do not suffer fools and useful idiots are no longer useful when the evil deeds are done.
 
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