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Thread: Open Carry Question about open carry cards, pamphlets and va code

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    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    Open Carry Question about open carry cards, pamphlets and va code

    Is there a place on here with a open Carry cheat sheet? Something that has the codes on here pertaining to fire arm laws and stop and Id laws. Now this brings me into my next question do I have to show id in VA. If so that answers my question if not what information do I have to give?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Since laws are generally passed to restrict or say what you cannot do legally, there are seldom laws to tell you what you can do legally - excepting a statute/ordinance rescinding a previous no-no specifically. So short answer - there is no law authorizing/making legal OCing.

    For a concise Cliff Notes guide to VA carry laws look here here.

    You really should join VCDL to support and further your right to defend yourself and to keep current on the laws, events and the behind the scenes stories. Their Va-Alert email newsletter is free - VCDL membership is the best $25.00 you'll ever spend and there are members only discounts discounts.
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    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    Thanks Grapeshot, I do understand that open carry is legal because there are no laws preventing it, and concealed carry is regulated do to the fact that it is a concealed weapon. I am a member of the VCDL and I currently do get the alerts. I think it is a great pro 2A group that really looks out for our rights in VA. I was more wondering where OC was restricted for some reason I'm thing CC is ok in certain places and OC is not. I'm all curios as to what my rights are when approached by a LEO if I am going about my day legally and OCING.
    Thanks for the input stay safe and enjoy your weekend! (well whats left of it)

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    The only major area that would be off limits without a CHP would be being within 1000 ft of a K-12 school. You must also have a CHP to carry inside the General Assembly. I can't really think of anything else.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 01-15-2012 at 02:28 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmuguy View Post
    Thanks Grapeshot, I do understand that open carry is legal because there are no laws preventing it, and concealed carry is regulated do to the fact that it is a concealed weapon. I am a member of the VCDL and I currently do get the alerts. I think it is a great pro 2A group that really looks out for our rights in VA. I was more wondering where OC was restricted for some reason I'm thing CC is ok in certain places and OC is not. I'm all curios as to what my rights are when approached by a LEO if I am going about my day legally and OCING. Thanks for the input stay safe and enjoy your weekend! (well whats left of it)
    Excepting the GAB and State Capitol building (a Joint Committee rule), I know of no formal list of properties restricting carrying w/o a permit - . Private property owners could choose to restrict either CC or OC) and not the other, but their is no definitive group/listing of the few that might be doing that. Have never found OC to be a major problem. If someone were to ask me to leave, cover it up etc., I would oblige and take my money elsewhere - after the fact, I would clamber up the management ladder.

    Just realized I didn't respond to your question of ID prior. If CCing you must have your CHP and state approved photo ID with you and present it when demanded by LEO. Not CCing - no valid reason other than there being specific RAS. VA is not a stop and identify state. Indeed you may carry sterile (no ID) if OCing. I will on the advice of council give my first name and general area of residence (Chesterfield County) if formally requested during the daylight hours. After dark I will respond with full name and neighborhood if pressed, but only offer it once. Reason is buried in an obscure (to me) law that Dan Hawes has pointed out.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-15-2012 at 03:02 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    A few on here have come up with a wallet-sized card that shows many of the laws concerning OCing in VA. ED happens to have a very nice one he updates every year. he also lists some web sites one can look at for more info. The NRA-ILA has a fairly comprehensive list of state laws they keep up to date.

    ED? Might you chime in here to get this guy some cards?

    mike
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    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    From Ed's signature:

    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Of course one sticky point would be if you were in a city that has a stop and identify law on the books (e.g., Virginia Beach).

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Of course one sticky point would be if you were in a city that has a stop and identify law on the books (e.g., Virginia Beach).
    So how does that work with preemption? And what if you were out taking a walk and was not carrying any sort of ID? How could they expect you show something you don't have on your person?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Of course one sticky point would be if you were in a city that has a stop and identify law on the books (e.g., Virginia Beach).
    Cite please on Virginia Beach stop & ID ordinance.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    So how does that work with preemption? And what if you were out taking a walk and was not carrying any sort of ID? How could they expect you show something you don't have on your person?
    All good questions. I'm assuming that as for preemption that nobody has made a challenge of that law in court. But the Virginia Beach law if I'm recalling correctly doesn't require that you have I.D., simply that you are required to provide your name and address anytime requested by LEO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please on Virginia Beach stop & ID ordinance.

    It's the same cite that I provided to you when you asked here:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1541641

    Sec. 23-7.1. Providing identification to police officer.
    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

    And that's a 1985 ordinance, confirmed still listed in Municode now. I have wondered a 100 times why it has never been challenged. And other "reasonable man" things have been tossed (such as the noise ordinances for the same reason -- no measurable test for that I think). As this was being discussed in the above thread, it was also (I thought) being added to the code tracker as there were other cities that had similar ordinances (still).
    Last edited by Glockster; 01-15-2012 at 08:57 PM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    It's the same cite that I provided to you when you asked here:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1541641

    Sec. 23-7.1. Providing identification to police officer.
    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

    And that's a 1985 ordinance, confirmed still listed in Municode now. I have wondered a 100 times why it has never been challenged. And other "reasonable man" things have been tossed (such as the noise ordinances for the same reason -- no measurable test for that I think). As this was being discussed in the above thread, it was also (I thought) being added to the code tracker as there were other cities that had similar ordinances (still).
    Couple of key words in this and I don't pretend I know about Virginia Beach laws, etc.

    "if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification".

    Does leave one to wonder the scope of this part of the provision. Is this still in effect in that city?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    It's the same cite that I provided to you when you asked here:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1541641
    You don't have a brother named Badger...do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    The only major area that would be off limits without a CHP would be being within 1000 ft of a K-12 school. You must also have a CHP to carry inside the General Assembly. I can't really think of anything else.
    Really? I live close to a K-12 school and oc all the time w/out a permit, sometimes walk right by the school, well within 1000ft. There are apartments within 1000 ft, are they prohibited from carrying in their residence or right outside? No one has ever hassled me about this, and if they do, I will be happy to be the test case to have this bs law declared unconstitutional. It is my belief the feds will never charge anyone with violation of this as they know it may be unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Jonesy; 01-16-2012 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Couple of key words in this and I don't pretend I know about Virginia Beach laws, etc.

    "if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification".

    Does leave one to wonder the scope of this part of the provision. Is this still in effect in that city?

    I believe that to be the case (still in effect) because I saw it enforced less than a year ago, and LEO are still aware of it when asked recently.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    The 1000ft from K-12 property thing is federal law (GFSZA). It was declared unconstitutional once by SCOTUS but then re-passed with a "justifying" part that sites the interstate commerce clause and hasn't been challenged again.

    It's normally used as an add-on charge for a person already going away for other crimes. But it still is and enforceable law, even if it is not commonly enforced.
    Just out of curiosity, can a Virginia LEO charge someone with a federal offense, such as a violation of the GFSZA or would that only be chargeable via a federal law enforcement agent of some kind? In other words, can and would Virginia officers be expected to act as agents of the federal government in this case? I don't think I have ever seen anything on these forums to support this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Just out of curiosity, can a Virginia LEO charge someone with a federal offense, such as a violation of the GFSZA or would that only be chargeable via a federal law enforcement agent of some kind? In other words, can and would Virginia officers be expected to act as agents of the federal government in this case? I don't think I have ever seen anything on these forums to support this.
    No and in the Hanover Sheriffs office ...man with a gun presentation, both the Commonwealths attorney and the Sheriffs spokesman says they absolutely cannot and will not enforce federal law. That answer was in response to my direct question about the GFZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No and in the Hanover Sheriffs office ...man with a gun presentation, both the Commonwealths attorney and the Sheriffs spokesman says they absolutely cannot and will not enforce federal law. That answer was in response to my direct question about the GFZ.
    Interesting. I will ask the same question of local leo when I get the chance.

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    Interesting searching on this topic....I have found information for several states that indicate that under their state law state and local police are authorized to arrest for violations of federal criminal law, but each of them stated that whether any police officer may make an arrest for a specific federal crime depends on whether the federal law explicitly or implicitly allows them to make an arrest for that crime based on the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. constitution which permits Congress to prohibit a state from enforcing a federal law. I have NOT found anything related to Virginia though.

    Added: I have only thus far found information regarding any Virginia police officer's ability to enforce immigration law, however in that there is specific mention of a 2007 opinion from VA OAG that says that police officers can arrest for criminal violations and that is in this VA OAG opinion dated 8/3/10: http://www.oag.state.va.us/Media%20a...on_Status.html

    But that does seem to indicate a precedent for enforcing federal law by Virginia police.
    Last edited by Glockster; 01-16-2012 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    So how does that work with preemption? And what if you were out taking a walk and was not carrying any sort of ID? How could they expect you show something you don't have on your person?
    Going back to this, the law only states you have to identify yourself, not give identification.

    State your name, maybe your address if the law requires, but not an actual id card (outside of driving, which is) different

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Feds do't enforce local or state laws...

    As a former Fed. LEO (Coast Guard), I can say with near-certainty that it does not work the other way...
    Fed. LEOs can not enforce state or local laws. When we found a state violation in the course of a boarding, we would contact "locals" if it was "semi-serious".
    If it was something minor, we would advise the offender of the state law broken (written warning) and let them go.
    Example: When Maryland had a moratorium on Rockfish (Striped Bass) because of their near-extinction due to over-fishing, we would detain the "customer" until state fisheries or local LE could meet us at the pier. Violation of the law was $1,000 per FISH, siezure of the boat and a mandatory minimum jail term. One memorable catch: We were cruising upriver and saw a fishing boat decide on very short notice that it was time to leave the area. We didn't have plans to board them at the time... We were going home for dinner after being out all day harassing the general boating public (note sarcasm here... this wasn't my favorite pastime). They seemed to pull their anchor up in near-record time while the operator 'floored' the throttle so fast, his crew tumbled in a pile in the back of the boat. I was watching them with binoculars at the time and actually laughed out loud (long before the internet was invented, BTW). We changed course a few degrees to follow them and turned on the blue light and sounded the siren. They acted like they hadn't noticed us at all. Gee Wiz... a white 41' Coast Guard boat with twin Cummings 903 cubic-inch Turbo-Diesels coming up on a full power less than 500 yards away is NOT stealthy. After the pair of "crewmen" recovered from their tumble in the scuppers, they opened coolers and started throwing fish like footballs from either side of the boat. Dead fish, like bales of dope, float. After they ran out of room (they went upriver in a 'dead-end' river), they stopped. We put the boarding party aboard and went back to collect fish: 36 Rockfish.
    I don't care who you are, THAT's gonna hurt your wallet! We didn't find any federal violations, but knew there was at LEAST $36,000 worth of state laws broken, so we called the locals...
    Last edited by MSC 45ACP; 01-17-2012 at 10:57 PM. Reason: guess I can't fix a misspelled topic...
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Of course one sticky point would be if you were in a city that has a stop and identify law on the books (e.g., Virginia Beach).
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please on Virginia Beach stop & ID ordinance.
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    It's the same cite that I provided to you when you asked here:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1541641

    Sec. 23-7.1. Providing identification to police officer.
    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

    And that's a 1985 ordinance, confirmed still listed in Municode now. I have wondered a 100 times why it has never been challenged. And other "reasonable man" things have been tossed (such as the noise ordinances for the same reason -- no measurable test for that I think). As this was being discussed in the above thread, it was also (I thought) being added to the code tracker as there were other cities that had similar ordinances (still).
    A cite on a previously non-referenced thread does not relieve one of the necessity/responsibilty to supply it again - unless such cite is so well known as to be common knowledge - this one is not.

    The problem IMO is that you call this ordinance a "sticky point" which I do not see at all - there is nothing unusual in it. Response is simple: give your name (first only?) and county of residence once and keep on truckin'. Absenting any RAS there is no reason to detain you. So where is this "sticky point" to which you alledge?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    As a former Fed. LEO (Coast Guard), I can say with near-certainty that it does not work the other way...
    Fed. LEOs can not enforce state or local laws. When we found a state violation in the course of a boarding, we would contact "locals" if it was "semi-serious".
    If it was something minor, we would advise the offender of the state law broken (written warning) and let them go.
    Example: When Maryland had a moratorium on Rockfish (Striped Bass) because of their near-extinction due to over-fishing, we would detain the "customer" until state fisheries or local LE could meet us at the pier.
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but then again...

    If you didn't have the authority to charge them on the state violations, what gave you the authority to hold them until the locals showed up? What if they had asked "are we free to go?" at some point during your detention?

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but then again...

    If you didn't have the authority to charge them on the state violations, what gave you the authority to hold them until the locals showed up? What if they had asked "are we free to go?" at some point during your detention?

    TFred
    Voluntary compliance through intimidation maybe - the one with the bigger stick wins.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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