Open Carrying in Vehicle without a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit) - STICKY

traveling to springfield

I'm coming up to VA from NC. I open carry all the time out here it seems that VA is just as friendly the r laws for OC seem to be the same. i was wondering if there is anything I gotta worry about in Springfield or that area for OC any good stores ,shops or restaurants I need to check out. Or places I need to stay away from?

Virginia Attorney General Renders Opinion on Motor Vehicle Carry

Here is an official opinion from AG Ken Cucinelli in re open carry and legal carry in a motor vehicle. I have a couple of copies I keep in my truck just in case LE may not be fully aware.

http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions and Legal Resources/Opinions/2012opns/11-111 Newman.pdf

mtbinva said:

Here is an official opinion from AG Ken Cucinelli in re open carry and legal carry in a motor vehicle. I have a couple of copies I keep in my truck just in case LE may not be fully aware.

http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions and Legal Resources/Opinions/2012opns/11-111 Newman.pdf

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That helped a lot I just down loaded it to my phone thanks !!

danoc said:

That helped a lot I just down loaded it to my phone thanks !!

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No worries, glad I could help. Maybe the mods could make that a sticky in the Virginia Forums.

mtbinva said:

No worries, glad I could help. Maybe the mods could make that a sticky in the Virginia Forums.

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Individual posts cannot be stickied, only threads can be so tagged.

danoc said:

I'm coming up to VA from NC. I open carry all the time out here it seems that VA is just as friendly the r laws for OC seem to be the same. i was wondering if there is anything I gotta worry about in Springfield or that area for OC any good stores ,shops or restaurants I need to check out. Or places I need to stay away from?

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You should be pretty safe if you stick around Springfield, but just to be extra safe, with all the new construction going on in that area, especially along the Beltway, just be very sure you don't end up in Maryland accidentally!



TFred

Grapeshot said:

Individual posts cannot be stickied, only threads can be so tagged.

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Gotcha.

Thanks. I'll start one with the correct links.

http://edsfiles.us/letters/agglovebox.pdf

Issues Presented
You present several questions related to the possession and storage of firearms in vehicles by
persons who may lawfully possess a fireatm but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit. You first ask whether a handgun can be loaded inside a vehicle and under what conditions. Your second inquiry concerns whether a handgun can be within the reach of a driver or a passenger inside a vehicle. You next ask whether a center console, glove compartment or any other "container or compartment must be locked to constitute a "secured container or compartment" Finally, you ask whether an individual can keep a firearm in their vehicle at their place of employment even if there is a company policy or signage stating it is not allowed.


Response1
It is my opinion that, provided the handgun is properly secured in a container or compartment
within the vehicle, persons who may lawfully possess a firerum but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit may possess, in a vehicle, a handgun that is loaded and the handgun may remain within reach of a driver or passenger under such conditions. It further is my opinion that, for a handgun to be "secured in a container or compartment," such storage tool need not be locked. Finally, it is my opinion that an individual may not keep a firearm stored in his vehicle at a place of employment if there is a company policy or signage prohibiting firearms on the premises.

http://edsfiles.us/letters/caseglovebox.pdf

<snip>
The facts are not in dispute. On October 28, 2011, Officer L.C. Jones of the Henrico County Police Department stopped appellant for a traffic violation. Officer Jones asked appellant if he had anything in his glove box to cause him concern. Appellant responded that he had a handgun in the glove compartment. The glove box was closed and latched, but not locked. Officer Jones removed the handgun and charged appellant with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. <snip>

ed said:

http://edsfiles.us/letters/agglovebox.pdf

Issues Presented
You present several questions related to the possession and storage of firearms in vehicles by
persons who may lawfully possess a fireatm but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit. You first ask whether a handgun can be loaded inside a vehicle and under what conditions. Your second inquiry concerns whether a handgun can be within the reach of a driver or a passenger inside a vehicle. You next ask whether a center console, glove compartment or any other "container or compartment must be locked to constitute a "secured container or compartment" Finally, you ask whether an individual can keep a firearm in their vehicle at their place of employment even if there is a company policy or signage stating it is not allowed.


Response1
It is my opinion that, provided the handgun is properly secured in a container or compartment
within the vehicle, persons who may lawfully possess a firerum but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit may possess, in a vehicle, a handgun that is loaded and the handgun may remain within reach of a driver or passenger under such conditions. It further is my opinion that, for a handgun to be "secured in a container or compartment," such storage tool need not be locked. Finally, it is my opinion that an individual may not keep a firearm stored in his vehicle at a place of employment if there is a company policy or signage prohibiting firearms on the premises.

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I read on vcdl accomplishments that a law was passed in 2012 prohibiting employers from prohibiting an employee from storing a firearm in ones personal vehicle while on said employers property.

http://www.vcdl.org/accom

Although I guess that just bans localities not businesses (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, can someone provide code of law for this (if one exists yet)

JesterP99 said:

I read on vcdl accomplishments that a law was passed in 2012 prohibiting employers from prohibiting an employee from storing a firearm in ones personal vehicle while on said employers property.

http://www.vcdl.org/accom

Although I guess that just bans localities not businesses (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, can someone provide code of law for this (if one exists yet)

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It was HB375, and yes, it only applied to local governments, not to private business or property owners.

Here is the history of the bill's path to law.

Here is the new law, with the relevant changes highlighted for easy viewing.

TFred

Seems like a lot of this may come down to the legal definition of some words.

I am not at home.

I 'own' my Dad's old shotgun (it's at home, in a cabinet, in a case, unloaded, ammunition someplace else)

Is this the same as 'possession', or does possession require it to be closer (geographically) to where I am?

I am 'transporting' my firearm. In the trunk of my car, firearm unloaded in one locked box, ammunition in a separate locked box (but both boxes in the trunk). Is this 'possession' ?

Can either 'transportation' or 'possession' be construed to be 'carrying'?

I 'assume' that when I have my firearm on me (including beyond my physical person but within easy reach), in a holster or not, concealed or not, loaded or not, that I am indeed 'carrying'.

Devil is in the details.

Thanks,
Jim.

jwaldo said:

Seems like a lot of this may come down to the legal definition of some words.

I am not at home.

I 'own' my Dad's old shotgun (it's at home, in a cabinet, in a case, unloaded, ammunition someplace else)

Is this the same as 'possession', or does possession require it to be closer (geographically) to where I am?

I am 'transporting' my firearm. In the trunk of my car, firearm unloaded in one locked box, ammunition in a separate locked box (but both boxes in the trunk). Is this 'possession' ?

Can either 'transportation' or 'possession' be construed to be 'carrying'?

I 'assume' that when I have my firearm on me (including beyond my physical person but within easy reach), in a holster or not, concealed or not, loaded or not, that I am indeed 'carrying'.

Devil is in the details.

Thanks,
Jim.

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Welcome to OCDO! I don't know how long you've been lurking before you signed up to post, but if you spend some time reading past posts, especially posts by one of our resident gun rights defense attorneys who goes by the username, User, you will find that most of these questions have been quite thoroughly hammered out.

TFred

TFred,

Thanks for the Welcome !

Been reading for quite some time, just recently joined. Thought it might be nice to have these answers in this thread vs. searching all over the site (a search on possession returns too many hits, many unrelated to the question).

Possession, it seems, is a very tricky and difficult thing to quantify. I often see things like 'possession on our property is prohibited'. I can see how Carrying could be equated with Possession. But, is Transporting (2 containers locked and in trunk) also Possession? How do I determine if I can park in their parking lot?

Related to OC in a car.

Thanks,
Jim.

jwaldo said:

TFred,

Thanks for the Welcome !

Been reading for quite some time, just recently joined. Thought it might be nice to have these answers in this thread vs. searching all over the site (a search on possession returns too many hits, many unrelated to the question).

Possession, it seems, is a very tricky and difficult thing to quantify. I often see things like 'possession on our property is prohibited'. I can see how Carrying could be equated with Possession. But, is Transporting (2 containers locked and in trunk) also Possession? How do I determine if I can park in their parking lot?

Related to OC in a car.

Thanks,
Jim.

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When you are speaking of private property, there aren't any tricks hidden in the law, the owner's request is the only thing that counts. If they say you can't have (carry, possess, think fondly of) a gun while on their property, then you can't.

What IS good about the situation at least in Virginia, there is no CRIMINAL violation specifically for violating the property owner's demand with regard to firearms. Some states do specifically criminalize this. The owner can ask you to leave, and if you refuse to comply with their request, you can be charged with trespassing, just as would be the case for any other situation where you were unwelcome on someone's private property.

There are no cites in the Code of Virginia for this, because the situation comes as a result of no other provisions that address these particular kinds of events.

TFred

So, in article 18.2-308 subsection 10, when it says personal, private vehicle. What's the definition of that vehicle? Does it have to be owned by me, and does the vehicle have to be for personal use?

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

paramedic70002 said:

IIRC (someone cite please?) there is one documented case of an OCer being arrested for being "concealed" in a car and it was thrown out of court.

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peter nap said:

Dan (User) defended that case. The Commonwealth asked for dismissal after Dan enlightened him.

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Didn't want to start a new thread since this is already here...can anyone assist me in finding this case? I have had no luck searching here or elsewhere. I would greatly appreciate it.

Urgent HB 962 to make cc in your unlcked glove box illegal wo cc permit

Virginia: McAuliffe’s First Attempt to Roll Back the Rights of Gun Owners

Posted on March 6, 2014
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With only two days left in the 2014 regular legislative session, Governor Terry McAuliffe (D) has made his first attempt to limit the legal use of firearms in Virginia by returning an amendment to House Bill 962 that would further restrict how handguns may be stored in vehicles. Sponsored by Delegate Ben Cline (R-24), HB 962 would codify an Attorney General opinion from 2012 (see here), and a decision of the Virginia Court of Appeals from last year, Doulgerakis v. Com., 737 S.E.2d 40 (Va. Ct. App. 2013). House Bill 962 has passed in the House of Delegates by a 70 to 27 vote as well as in the Senate by a 27 to 13 vote.

This opinion and decision both found that a handgun in a vehicle doesn’t have to be in a locked compartment in the motor vehicle to fit within a statutory exception to the concealed carry prohibition that allows for a person without a permit to conceal a firearm within a secured compartment or “secured” container within a motor vehicle. The McAuliffe amendment seeks to contradict the opinion and ruling by forcing drivers to keep firearms in a “locked” container rather than being allowed to secure those firearms in a container without a lock as they have lawfully been doing for years. What began as a simple clarification bill would be turned into legislation that is worse than current law.

The House of Delegates is expected to vote on this amendment tomorrow. Please contact your Delegate and respectfully urge him or her to vote against this restrictive amendment.

On a brighter note, as of July 1, hunters in the Commonwealth will finally be permitted to hunt on Sundays on private property with written landowner permission. House Bill 1237 was signed into law yesterday and its Senate companion, Senate Bill 154, is expected soon to be enacted as well. Please contact the sponsors of these bills, Delegate Todd Gilbert (R-15) and Senator Phil Puckett (D-38), and thank them for their leadership to expand and protect the Commonwealth's rich hunting heritage and providing greater opportunities to hunt that will strengthen recruitment and retention.

In case anyone wonders what happened to HB 962...

beverly37620 said:

Virginia: McAuliffe’s First Attempt to Roll Back the Rights of Gun Owners
Posted on March 6, 2014

With only two days left in the 2014 regular legislative session, Governor Terry McAuliffe (D) has made his first attempt to limit the legal use of firearms in Virginia by returning an amendment to House Bill 962 that would further restrict how handguns may be stored in vehicles. Sponsored by Delegate Ben Cline (R-24), HB 962 would codify an Attorney General opinion from 2012 (see here), and a decision of the Virginia Court of Appeals from last year, Doulgerakis v. Com., 737 S.E.2d 40 (Va. Ct. App. 2013).

This opinion and decision both found that a handgun in a vehicle doesn’t have to be in a locked compartment in the motor vehicle to fit within a statutory exception to the concealed carry prohibition that allows for a person without a permit to conceal a firearm within a secured compartment or “secured” container within a motor vehicle.
The McAuliffe amendment seeks to contradict the opinion and ruling by forcing drivers to keep firearms in a “locked” container rather than being allowed to secure those firearms in a container without a lock as they have lawfully been doing for years. What began as a simple clarification bill would be turned into legislation that is worse than current law.

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The new Governor vetoed this bill which was meant to only clarify what counts as a "compartment" in a private vehicle and what "secured" means.

HB 962 Description

Carrying concealed handgun; secured container or compartment in vehicle. Provides that for purposes of the exception to the prohibition against carrying a concealed weapon in a secured container or compartment in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel, the term "compartment" includes a console, glove compartment, or any other area within or on the vehicle or vessel that possesses the ability to be closed. The bill also provides that the term "secured" does not require that a container or compartment be locked, but merely closed. Amends § 18.2-308, of the Code of Virginia. »

This is the current wording of the section of Va. Code which lists a very important exception for having a concealed handgun in your vehicle in Virginia without the need for a concealed handgun permit:

"10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

Hands on wheel

Jonesy said:

Good advice by all in this thread. I carry in my right side holster, and leave it there when driving. When I am driving it may not be visibile to officer due to seatbelt and console, so an officer could try to make an issue of this. If you want to be safe, if you are pulled over, put gun on passenger seat before officer approaches vehicle, preferably in holster. However, this may make it more likely officer will take weapon for "officer safety" and then run your serial number. Hopefully, the constitutional carry bill will eliminate this problem.

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I disagree Jonesy. Any squirming movement removing the gun and holster would cause heightened alertness. Keeping hands on wheel until LEO is at window they know your not up to anything and will still be somewhat casual. I too carry on my right side and though I have never been pulled over while OCing, I ALWAYS keep both hands on the wheel until they approach.