Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 134

Thread: Open Carrying in Vehicle without a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit) - STICKY

  1. #1
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    172

    Open Carrying in Vehicle without a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit) - STICKY

    I know it has probably been asked before, but through my search for vehicle, I found nothing related to Virginia on the forums.

    My question is this, If you are open carrying a gun, and you do not have a CHP, where are you allowed to keep the firearm so it is still "in plain sight"?

    Jay told me today that he just keeps it on his side, now I didn't get to see him carrying it while seated in his car, but from my experience, the gun tends to be hidden by the seat belt buckle or my jacket and isn't completely "in plain sight."

    Now, maybe I am wrong and it is still visible due to part of the slide sticking out, or what not, but should I just practice removing the gun from my holster and putting it on my dash? Where else can I put it in my car without a CHP? If my glove box doesn't lock, can I still put it in there?

    Thanks for your help.

    And thank you Jay for meeting with me today. Same to you Agent19, too bad we left as you were getting there.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    I wish the ADMN would make the answers to this sticky.


    First, you CAN conceal it in a secured (not necessarily locked) container... Gove box, console, backpack, Etc.
    Second. If the gun is openly carried when you step out of the car, the same carry is open in the car. It's NEVER visible from 360 degrees regardless of where you are.

    Third, welcome to the site and

    Fourth, expect a million other replies and opinions.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-15-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Yorktown, ,
    Posts
    407
    Opinion #2: peter nap is the hammer and this topic is the nail in the coffin.

    OC properly around, get in car.... still OC. I would MUCH rather have my sidearm holstered on my side or under my arm than have it around the car somewhere. just my preference.

  4. #4
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    172
    So, if I understand you guys right, you are saying that even though I don't have a CHP, even if the weapon is not visible due to seatbelt, I can still keep it holstered?

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quarryville, PA
    Posts
    3,543
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    So, if I understand you guys right, you are saying that even though I don't have a CHP, even if the weapon is not visible due to seatbelt, I can still keep it holstered?
    Yes, that is exactly what is being said. If you are OCing outside of the car and you get in the car you are still open carrying. As Peter noted, the gun is never going to be visible from every side of the car but you are still OCing so you are good to go. Yes, you can keep it holsteredz And no, you don't have to notify the police that you are carrying if pulled over.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 01-15-2012 at 06:19 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  6. #6
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Greene County
    Posts
    3,844
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I wish the ADMN would make the answers to this sticky.


    First, you CAN conceal it in a secured (not necessarily locked) container... Gove box, console, backpack, Etc.
    Second. If the gun is openly carried when you step out of the car, the same carry is open in the car. It's NEVER visible from 360 degrees regardless of where you are.

    Third, welcome to the site and

    Fourth, expect a million other replies and opinions.

    1+
    OP, did you see my firearm this morning and how I was carrying it?
    I no longer have a valid CHP.
    Oh yeah, it was nice meeting you this morning even if it was only briefly.
    I noticed you were shivering there at one point.

    Remember, the police can and do arrest folks for all kinds of legal activity, don't let that stop you from doing what is legal.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  7. #7
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    1+
    OP, did you see my firearm this morning and how I was carrying it?
    I no longer have a valid CHP.
    Oh yeah, it was nice meeting you this morning even if it was only briefly.
    I noticed you were shivering there at one point.

    Remember, the police can and do arrest folks for all kinds of legal activity, don't let that stop you from doing what is legal.
    Actually, I didn't see your gun, I guess I never looked on your right side. And yes, I was cold, I get cold fairly quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post

    First, you CAN conceal it in a secured (not necessarily locked) container... Gove box, console, backpack, Etc.
    Are you saying that I can keep it in my glove box, whether I have my CHP or not?

  8. #8
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Accomac, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,213

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    Are you saying that I can keep it in my glove box, whether I have my CHP or not?
    Yes under 18.2-308 B 10.
    Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308


  9. #9
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    Yes under 18.2-308 B 10.
    Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    Sounds good. Okay, now we can make this a sticky.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    The whole coat/seatbelt thing is quite squrimy, IMHO. And as noted, any LEO can arrest you for anything they want, without regard to the facts that support or do not support the arrest.

    One common thing that is often said is that it's not concealed if the LEO took the time and trouble to LOOK for it. And as just recently posted, if it's OC before you get in, then it's OC while you're in...

    But there are situations for which that may not be true. I would imagine that there are some coats or jackets or even untucked shirts that would be OC outside standing up, but sitting down in a car, they may cover the gun completely. That would seem to be one example of CC inside, even if not outside.

    The rule of thumb I would use would be closer to the "if someone LOOKED for it, could they see it?" At least that would give you the benefit of asking the arresting LEO in front of the judge, "How did you know I was carrying a concealed handgun?" As long as they don't lie, anything even close to "I saw it..." should be the end of the case. In a perfect world....

    TFred

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    416
    Good advice by all in this thread. I carry in my right side holster, and leave it there when driving. When I am driving it may not be visibile to officer due to seatbelt and console, so an officer could try to make an issue of this. If you want to be safe, if you are pulled over, put gun on passenger seat before officer approaches vehicle, preferably in holster. However, this may make it more likely officer will take weapon for "officer safety" and then run your serial number. Hopefully, the constitutional carry bill will eliminate this problem.

  12. #12
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,448
    IIRC (someone cite please?) there is one documented case of an OCer being arrested for being "concealed" in a car and it was thrown out of court.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    IIRC (someone cite please?) there is one documented case of an OCer being arrested for being "concealed" in a car and it was thrown out of court.
    Dan (User) defended that case. The Commonwealth asked for dismissal after Dan enlightened him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    If you want to be safe, if you are pulled over, put gun on passenger seat before officer approaches vehicle, preferably in holster. However, this may make it more likely officer will take weapon for "officer safety" and then run your serial number. Hopefully, the constitutional carry bill will eliminate this problem.

    This is absolutely the (please do not be offended) stupidest advice to give. Never ever ever handle your firearm when an officer is stopping/approaching the vehicle. There is nothing wrong with leaving a holstered gun on your hip in an OC fashion without a CHP when you are sitting in your vehicle doesn't matter if the OC'd firearm is blocked by a seatbelt console (If you were to step out of your vehicle is it still OC'ing?? If it is then you are good to drive that way). This has already been visited in court and thrown out.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  15. #15
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Two of the best argument examples I have seen are these.

    You are standing in front of a magazine display, looks through a few periodicals when an LEO approaches on your weak side. Obviously he cannot see your sidearm. A few moments later, your turn to leave and he now sees it. Was it "hidden from common observation" when he first approached? Of course not.

    You enter a restaurant and are directed to a booth table. You slide in, strong side to the wall and proceed to enjoy your meal. Your sidearm is not visible to anyone while you are sitting in the booth. Is it "hidden from common observaton"? Yes it is but was it a deliberate act? Probably not.

    In these two instances, your sidearm was not visible to people on the other side of your person. But are you concealing the firearm or is it incidental?

    Sitting in your car with a firearm on your side and without a part of your clothing or something else covering it still constitutes open carry. Now if you were to put a book, newspaper, magazine, or a towel over it, yes you would be concealing it. So just have it on your side, openly visible as you normally would and when you enter your vehicle, buckle up and don't worry about simple incidentals, like seat belts or center consoles. FWIW, I wrap my seat belt behind my sidearm's grip so that the gun is unencumbered by the seat belt should I have to get to it quickly. This also makes the grip and rear part of the gun more visible by chance.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 01-16-2012 at 09:27 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    This is absolutely the (please do not be offended) stupidest advice to give. Never ever ever handle your firearm when an officer is stopping/approaching the vehicle. There is nothing wrong with leaving a holstered gun on your hip in an OC fashion without a CHP when you are sitting in your vehicle doesn't matter if the OC'd firearm is blocked by a seatbelt console (If you were to step out of your vehicle is it still OC'ing?? If it is then you are good to drive that way). This has already been visited in court and thrown out.
    I did not suggest to do this when the officer is approaching the vehicle, that would obviously be dangerous or "stupid" as you would say. But I can easily do this before the officer exits his vehicle or before I even stop. One time I got pulled over and locked it in my center console before I even stopped and well before officer left his vehicle. I was a little unsure at that time of oc in vehicle, but now just leave it on my hip.

    Since you say it has been visited and thrown out in court, please provide a cite, I want to be enlightened.
    Last edited by Jonesy; 01-16-2012 at 05:27 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    But I can easily do this before the officer exits his vehicle or before I even stop.
    Since you say it has been visited and thrown out in court, please provide a cite, I want to be enlightened.

    I would not even do it at any point of the traffic stop regardless if the officer is out of the vehicle or not. Trust me when a cop is pulling you over he is watching everything you are doing. Even if he can't see the gun he can tell if you are doing something that no normal person would be doing. How many people do you think would hide there drugs before the cop gets out of his/her car but the cop knows darn well what they are doing.

    As far as a cite do a search through the forum "User" is the one who represented the case and got the dismissal. I am running out the door at the moment if you do not find it send me a PM and I will locate it later.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  18. #18
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Sterling, Va.
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    I would not even do it at any point of the traffic stop regardless if the officer is out of the vehicle or not. Trust me when a cop is pulling you over he is watching everything you are doing. Even if he can't see the gun he can tell if you are doing something that no normal person would be doing. How many people do you think would hide there drugs before the cop gets out of his/her car but the cop knows darn well what they are doing.

    As far as a cite do a search through the forum "User" is the one who represented the case and got the dismissal. I am running out the door at the moment if you do not find it send me a PM and I will locate it later.
    ^This^

    Furtive hasty movements upon coming to a stop can be used as RAS (iirc) to pursue further action beyond just a ticket (having you step out, more intense "plain view" search, tricking you into "consensual" search etc... )

    Just leave it on your hip, hands on the wheel, and KYBMS (Keep Your Big Mouth Shut)

    Sent using tapatalk
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

  19. #19
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    172
    Now, you have it on your hip and they don't see it. You don't have to tell them, correct? And if they do see it and ask then obviously it is in plain sight because they saw to ask. I am just worried about reaching into my pocket to get my wallet with the gun right there. I would sure hate to have them jump to conclusions too quickly.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Sterling, Va.
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    Now, you have it on your hip and they don't see it. You don't have to tell them, correct? And if they do see it and ask then obviously it is in plain sight because they saw to ask. I am just worried about reaching into my pocket to get my wallet with the gun right there. I would sure hate to have them jump to conclusions too quickly.
    Now granted, I haven't been pulled over for a long time now, but the procedure that's been taught to me has been this...

    Come to a stop, turn off vehicle, get wallet and registration/insurance out and out on dash (papers should be easy to access, either console or visor, not glove box so as to not be seen reaching across the car) put keys on dash, unbuckle and hands on wheel. All this in 5-6 seconds and wait for cop.

    You have no obligation to inform the officer you are carrying, but some do anyway out of politness or respect... Or whatever reasons they have. I don't plan on doing so if I am pulled over, but it's up to you. I won't be reaching for anything, even to unbuckle to get out, so I don't anticipate anything bad happening.

    Sent using tapatalk
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    I would not even do it at any point of the traffic stop regardless if the officer is out of the vehicle or not. Trust me when a cop is pulling you over he is watching everything you are doing. Even if he can't see the gun he can tell if you are doing something that no normal person would be doing. How many people do you think would hide there drugs before the cop gets out of his/her car but the cop knows darn well what they are doing.

    As far as a cite do a search through the forum "User" is the one who represented the case and got the dismissal. I am running out the door at the moment if you do not find it send me a PM and I will locate it later.
    If I want to lock my gun away to prevent him from getting it and running the serial numbers, I will do that and not give a damn if he doesn't like it. I have done this and the officer did not notice despite you saying anything to the contrary. Let him get a warrant if he wants to search a locked container, cause I will not voluntarily give him the keys. If I am told to get out, I will be locking the car on the way out.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    Now, you have it on your hip and they don't see it. You don't have to tell them, correct? And if they do see it and ask then obviously it is in plain sight because they saw to ask. I am just worried about reaching into my pocket to get my wallet with the gun right there. I would sure hate to have them jump to conclusions too quickly.

    You do not have to tell them me personally with my hands at 10 and 3 on the steering wheel. If he/she asks for license a and I have to lean to the side and my firearm could get exposed to him/her. I would notify him/her that I have a firearm in a holster on my right hip. If they say can I take it off you or can you take it out the answer is "NO"!!!!
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  23. #23
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    If I want to lock my gun away to prevent him from getting it and running the serial numbers, I will do that and not give a damn if he doesn't like it. I have done this and the officer did not notice despite you saying anything to the contrary. Let him get a warrant if he wants to search a locked container, cause I will not voluntarily give him the keys. If I am told to get out, I will be locking the car on the way out.

    That is your prerogative I would rather get the traffic stop done and over with, and not have him detain me anymore then necessary because he sees me excessively fiddling around in my car.

    Why would a cop take your gun away to run the serial numbers anyway without your permission? That in and of itself is an unlawful seizure.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    That is your prerogative I would rather get the traffic stop done and over with, and not have him detain me anymore then necessary because he sees me excessively fiddling around in my car.

    Why would a cop take your gun away to run the serial numbers anyway without your permission? That in and of itself is an unlawful seizure.
    You have not read the numerous posts on this forum where Virginia cops take away guns during traffic stops for "officer safety"? I have, and the posts suggest that the courts allow this.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    You have not read the numerous posts on this forum where Virginia cops take away guns during traffic stops for "officer safety"? I have, and the posts suggest that the courts allow this.

    Not a suggestion at all. Statement of fact.

    The nice thing is that it is actually a small number of incidents compared to the total number of traffic and other stops involving lawfully armed citizens. The nicer thing is that there is a small but significant number of attempts to do that which are defeated by explaining to the nice officer that since administrative handling of a firearm, especially by someone unfamiliar with its operation, increases the chances of a negligent discharge it is actually safer for all involved to just leave it in the holster and everybody keeps their hands away from it.

    Seriously, I've had officers who had no idea how to work a "european" magazine release latch decide to just operate the slide and take the current round out of the chamber - not knowing that all they accomplished was reloading another round. Heck, they were trying to be nice and actually handed me the cartridge they had just jacked out!

    If they don't want to be cooperative, do not argue or resist. But be sure to check the condition of the handgun on its return and insist on a written report of damage they inflicted. You probably are not going to get it, but your recording of their refusal to write it up can go a long way in moving your written formal complaint and Tort Claims Act suit forward. (FYI - tort claims do not need an attorney. Go look up how to file one.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •