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"Personal Defense" v. "Gun Rights"

H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
There is no debating that Alisnky is a first class dirtbag, a purceyor of dirty tricks, lies and propaganda.
How presumptuous. There is another thread here, on etiquette, equally mistaken. I am not a "political activist" and my cause is mine. Y'all must needs to study up on the amen-corners of the the world - and their elites elders deacons.
 

Glockster

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Houston
If you are in any way active in teaching/instructing Tae Kwon Do in Virginia you will recognize the name Master Douglas Taylor - an old acquaintance and family friend. Have never heard him advocate that any of the martial arts was a satisfactory solution for all people in all circumstances - nor has Grand Master Dong.
http://www.dongs.com/about/instructors/

User's point is that the verbiage and therefore the response of the listener can be influenced/controlled directly as a result. User is recognized as a consummate professional in the history, language, law and use thereof in seeking satisfactory conclusions to our self defense problems. Public relations through effective communication being the point element in this quest. Effect control of the head of the beast and control the rest of the animal.

Not sure if I've met Douglas Taylor (don't recognize the name, but his face looks familiar). But I used to know Grand Master Dong as w-a-y back on my trips to Richmond I did from time to time work out at one of his studios (he knew one of my Grand Masters from TN).

But I wasn't suggesting that martial arts was a satisfactory solution for all people, not even sure that I'd suggest it as the best solution for most people. I get user's point, think that it was well stated. I was simply saying that for me, personally, I'm not sure I can get past what my own personal perception of the term "personal defense" has always meant. Perhaps I'd have an easier time of that if we were talking about unarmed vs. armed....but then I suppose the whole conversation would center around what exactly is "armed."

Interesting, it's harder today with Wikipedia and the protest, but I haven't found a definition for "personal defense."
 

Grapeshot

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SavageOne

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User's post is eloquent and thought provoking for both the Personal Defense Movement and the OC movement. My question is what about those who are not concerned with a movement and are only interested in exercising or even simply discussing a right? How are you going to treat or respond to forum members to whom it is more important to exercise their right than advance an agenda? I have already seen responses to post by some who seem willing to condemn or disparage people exercising their right if that exercise could make the "movement" look bad. I am not saying that people on this forum shouldn't work to improve the publics knowledge and help to promote acceptance of exercising of a the right, I'm saying that we should not replace the "goal" with the "movement".

This forum was dedicated to the right of openly carrying holstered handguns in daily life, as evidenced by the banner on the front page.

OpenCarry.org
A pro-gun Internet community focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

Please, realize that how people choose to exercise that right in daily life may not fit with how some wish to portray that right, but please also never forget that it is still their right to do it that way. If you do then your are limiting their expression just as much as those you oppose.




It is only January and the OP's remarks may well be the best of 2012.

We are involved in a war of public relations in which we hold our truths (facts) to be self-evident. <snip>

Sounds an awful lot like a war "for the hearts and minds" and historically those don't go to well. Also, when exactly will this war be won? Realistically, you will never be able to make everyone like guns, let alone, the open display of them. So, when can people put aside the concern that exercising their right may invoke and simple exercise the right? The simple fact is you will never make everyone like open carry(or any form of carry for that matter), I will settle for people and the government(be it local, state, federal) accepting it.


I have long maintained that the 2A rights movement would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from a strong education in Bernays and Alinsky. We have depended for far to long on the mistaken preseumption that the majority of the public actually is capable of logic, reason and critical thinking. They are not. They are brainwashed, ignorant, uneducated sheeple, and need to be fed a steady diet of emotional BS, anecdotal evidence, and argumentum ad abusrdum to hange their opinions because that is how they have been raised, educated, and are continually conditioned by the media and society. This is a sad but true fact in today'w world.

<snip>

And you would simply prefer to substitute you logic and reason? That sounds more like those who under the cloak of "equal rights" try to unlevel the field in their favor.



I am not trying to criticize User or anyone else for trying to advance a movement, just trying to remind them that for them to be truly successful they will have to accept how all people choose to use those gains.
 
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Grapeshot

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--snip--

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Grapeshot

It is only January and the OP's remarks may well be the best of 2012.

We are involved in a war of public relations in which we hold our truths (facts) to be self-evident. <snip>

Sounds an awful lot like a war "for the hearts and minds" and historically those don't go to well. Also, when exactly will this war be won? Realistically, you will never be able to make everyone like guns, let alone, the open display of them. So, when can people put aside the concern that exercising their right may invoke and simple exercise the right? The simple fact is you will never make everyone like open carry(or any form of carry for that matter), I will settle for people and the government(be it local, state, federal) accepting it.
--snip--

Interesting that you say that because in this case we are winning the war. Track the states that allowed open carry 20 years ago and then count the number today where a vast majority of states do allow OC. Forty-one (41) states now allow open carry in some manner. http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

There has never been an expectation on OCDO to cause everyone to "like open carry carry" (or any form of carry for that matter)."

A great portion of the philosophy of OCDO is represented in the freedom to choose to OC, not a requirement that anyone actually do so. Many here do OC daily, spreading the word by example and thereby being active in the process of educating and interacting in a positive way, hence changing public opinion. Too we work through the legislatures and when necessary through the courts.

As for me personally, I don't care whether you OC, CC, or noC. What I do strive for is that you do not hinder our choice in how we carry for our own defense and that of our loved ones. Without a doubt, we are winning the "hearts and minds" of the people.

The next frontier is Constitutional Carry which is already showing signs of spreading ever more rapidly - that obviously incorporates the choice to OC.

When will the war be over? Likely not in my lifetime or yours, if ever.
I cannot improve on the words of Thomas Jefferson, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
There will always be those that oppose us and we must be prepared to defend and hold the ground we have gained, while planning for a better tomorrow.
 
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SavageOne

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A great portion of the philosophy of OCDO is represented in the freedom to choose to OC, not a requirement that anyone actually do so. Many here do OC daily, spreading the word by example and thereby being active in the process of educating and interacting in a positive way, hence changing public opinion. Too we work through the legislatures and when necessary through the courts.<snip>

Do you also feel that people should have the freedom to choose how they OC? Should a person have the right to OC in a manner that might not agree with what some believe is "positive" for the movement? Should those people also be free from the condemnations and ridicule of those who may feel it hurts their movement? I have seen more than a few threads started that were immediately overwhelmed by those who felt that the thread's OP had "ruined it for the rest of us". As I said, the front page of this forum says it is here for the discussing the right of open carry. It seems too often that when someone comes here and doesn't follow, what some view as, the right way to do it , they are immediately chastised for how they chose to exercise their right.


As for me personally, I don't care whether you OC, CC, or noC. What I do strive for is that you do not hinder our choice in how we carry for our own defense and that of our loved ones. Without a doubt, we are winning the "hearts and minds" of the people.<snip>

What if you feel someone's exercising of their right,even if in a perfectly legal manner, hinders your choice, what then? If someone's choice in how they carry is portrayed in the media as poorly characterizing the OC movement, would you condemn them? Work to limit how they may exercise their right? Take away that right entirely, since they have shown that they cannot do so in an acceptable manner? How would you strive to protect your choice? You seem to saying that your choice supercedes their right, but I may be wrong. Perhaps you could explain to me what you view as more important, the right, or how the right is portrayed? It is possible you believe that they are equally important, but I must remind you if our rights don't protect the lowest how can they truly protect the highest?
 

deepdiver

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Do you also feel that people should have the freedom to choose how they OC? Should a person have the right to OC in a manner that might not agree with what some believe is "positive" for the movement? Should those people also be free from the condemnations and ridicule of those who may feel it hurts their movement? I have seen more than a few threads started that were immediately overwhelmed by those who felt that the thread's OP had "ruined it for the rest of us". As I said, the front page of this forum says it is here for the discussing the right of open carry. It seems too often that when someone comes here and doesn't follow, what some view as, the right way to do it , they are immediately chastised for how they chose to exercise their right.

What if you feel someone's exercising of their right,even if in a perfectly legal manner, hinders your choice, what then? If someone's choice in how they carry is portrayed in the media as poorly characterizing the OC movement, would you condemn them? Work to limit how they may exercise their right? Take away that right entirely, since they have shown that they cannot do so in an acceptable manner? How would you strive to protect your choice? You seem to saying that your choice supercedes their right, but I may be wrong. Perhaps you could explain to me what you view as more important, the right, or how the right is portrayed? It is possible you believe that they are equally important, but I must remind you if our rights don't protect the lowest how can they truly protect the highest?

Well, I would say that some things are more helpful than others and that the reality is that change on a national level is rather slow although the finish may seem to come quickly to those who aren't paying atttention. As I have pointed out before, it took the feds from the 1934 NFA, to the 1968 GCA to the 1986 NFA to the 1994 AWB before things started to reverse IMO starting with FL's 1987 CC law. The black civil rights movement while not equialent (don't want to get into a debate on that issue) is at least certainly instructive.

Everyone remembers Rosa Parks not sitting in the back of the bus in 1955 which led to a bus boycott and national attention and made her a hero of the civil righhts movement. What people don't know or forget, is that in 1943 when she sat in the "white section" she just got kicked off the bus. The zeitgeist was not right for it to matter in 1943 and it is also probable that the 1943 incident was accidental and the 1955 incident intentional and expected to be effective based on the 1943 experience. Timing is everthing in such issues, what works tomorrow may not work today and we need to learn from experiences.

MLKs civil disobedience was certianly efffective. The Black Panthers less so and at times detrimental to the "movement". Furthermore, their actions are argued by some as being a major catalyst for the 1968 GCA which to this day disproprotionately negatively effects the 2A rights of the poor and minorities.

Without making this too long my point is that politics and psychology means that these things take time and some arguments work better than others in changing that psychology and winning public opinion to shift the debate and the outcomes. Some things may be within your rights, but make for bad soundbites and news covverage and one bad situation can destroy the benefits of 1000 good ones.

Any "movement" takes and will involve all types. Some will be helpful, some not and not all will share specific goals even if united in the broader concepts. There will be infighting and disagreements. Only history will allow dissection of costs and benefits. For now, I think the discusssions and disagreements are often helpful. The internet and forums such as this allow us to debate and analyze as well as sharing experiences. We do not have to wait for the filtered MSM version of many events. We will each need to individuallly decide our role and position in this and we will certainly receive feedback, good or bad, solicited or not, from others who perceive a vested interest.
 

Dreamer

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How presumptuous. There is another thread here, on etiquette, equally mistaken. I am not a "political activist" and my cause is mine. Y'all must needs to study up on the amen-corners of the the world - and their elites elders deacons.


What do these sentences even mean?

Im starting to think, after careful analysis of the good Herr's posts, that "he" is in fact an automated, computer-generated "sock puppet" (and one with a pretty rudimentary language parser at that), and not a flesh-and-blood member at all...
 
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deepdiver

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What do these sentences even mean?

Im starting to think, after careful analysis of the good Herr's posts, that "he" is in fact an automated, computer-generated "sock puppet" (and one with a pretty rudimentary language parser at that), and not a flesh-and-blood member at all...

I think all of us long timers know who it is if we just think about it. I could be wrong, but the posting is similar....
 

damnyankee20

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Jan 22, 2012
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Michigan
Hello, this is my first post.

I am an avid reader of our Founding Fathers and their individual writings. They are crystal clear on what the Second Amendment IS. Many of the We the Sheeple don't even know our Bill of Rights was actually a carry over from our 1689 colonial Bill of Rights (which everyone of my ancestors on both sides of my family enjoyed). If the Founding Fathers read the title of this thread "Personal Defense" v. "Gun Rights", they would be saddened and disappointed how the very Gov't they created has nearly dismantled our Second Amendment liberties and divided us Americans. Here's a sampling of their wisdom:

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."
- Noah Webster

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
- Patrick Henry

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..."
- Samuel Adams

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, 1788

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence...the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
- George Washington to the 1st Congress

"The beauty about the 2nd Amendment is, it is not needed until they try to take it."
- Thomas Jefferson

ALL of our Founding Fathers are on record stating how the 2nd Amendment guarantees all of our liberties - and they agreed with Noah Webster's comment above. As you are well aware, the Founding Fathers REQUIRED all able body men to own and know how to use their firearms. That law was created and handed down by our Founding Fathers until it was destroyed by the aristrocratic democrat Woodrow Wilson early in the 20th century. This opened the door for other democrat presidents like FDR, LBJ, and Clinton to further slash away at our precious Second Amendment. Thomas Jefferson was the most liberal of the Founding Fathers - yet, liberal presidents of the 20th century did not support this Founding Fathers' liberal precedent.

Fast-forwarding to today: In the last 40 years, I have grown deeply saddened to how much Snobbery has creeped into our shooting sports/hunting activities. Regardless of type of firearm, ammo, or hunting opinions, it's ALL good! Because of my unsubstatiated opinion regarding tactical advantage, I personally do not open carry but that's how I choose to exercise my 2nd Amendment liberty. HOWEVER, I would defend to my death your choice to open carry because that's how you choose to exercise your 2nd Amendment liberty. Our Founding Fathers founded this Nation on Individualism and the Bill of Rights were written for Individualism - yet in the last 50 years, Americans have forgotten (or never learned) all this history.

I don't have too many years left and I'm on my way out and not on my way in - God help our kids and grandkids from these tyrannical politicians who have made politics a sport (us vs. them so people choose sides) and who run roughshod over our Constitution. Both parties need to be thrown out of Washington D.C. - they are a disgrace to our Founding Fathers.

I wish you luck in your OC pursuits - you have every right to do so WITHOUT restrictions under our Founding Fathers' 2nd Amendment.
 
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William Fisher

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Jan 21, 2011
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Oxford, Ohio
I think you bring up a great argument user. The only problem I see is them turning around and saying "we aren't against self defense, you can defend yourself without a gun". Then we would say that since criminals have guns, we need access to the the same or better to defend ourselves. It becomes about the guns again. Maybe they'll then push 'less than lethals' and say we don't need guns. Ad nauseum.

Nothing you said is untrue but I just wonder what happens when we see things through to their natural conclusion. I agree that it's in our best interest to advocate self defense, as opposed to gun rights but we should realize that it will boil down to guns anyway regardless of the rhetoric. So, yes your rhetoric sounds better in public debate and if that's the only thing you are shooting for, it's probably a win.

I need at least an equal, if not greater ability to protect myself from an attack than that of the woman or man attacking me.
 

papa bear

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i have used this philosophy many time in the last few months when trying to convince the fence setters and also the determined assaulter, of the rights of people to defend themselves.

that is one of the reasons i don't like to use the word weapon, it is used by the brady bunch to conjure up an image of attack. just as the anti self defense crowd has instigated the terms of "gun-control", it is a phrase just to regulate firearms. make no mistake it is total banning that they want to do (unless of course, the government is the ones who have the guns)

i have shut down a lot of arguments by the wording of self defense. it is hard to argue against it
 

jmelvin

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Hot damn user! Thank you for your writeup. I realized some time ago that simply discussing "gun rights", "gun this, gun that, blah blah blah" didn't sell with those who may have never had the opportunity to handle firearms. Some were perfectly content that people had guns, some not so much, but when the conversation regarded keeping one's self and family safe and using whatever tools were necessary to accomplish that task people understood and engaged. Unless one understands the particular reasons one may keep or use any tool they might not understand all the hubbub about why some folks want and why some folks detest arms of any sort.
 

since9

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Before I begin, great post, user. You've made a lot of good points. I agree with most, and will only comment on a few.

In Sixteenth-Century Japan, there was a guy born as a peasant in a farming community; at that time, there was no caste system that prohibited his ascent...

All caste systems and class warfare are designed by some of the the haves to ensure they won't have to share with the have-nots.

On the other hand, other haves have no problem with the have-nots rising up to their ranks, provided they work for it instead of demanding a leg-up.

After the Tokugawa family instituted the hereditary shogunate, there was relative peace...

That is one of the goals of a caste system. Sometimes it even works, for a time.

...it is a mistake to engage the enemy on his own battlefield. We apply the same principle when we talk about "the home court advantage" in sports. The trick is to make the enemy engage us on our battlefield.

Aside from holing up in my little apartment, or engaging an enemy within my complex or in the nearby park I frequent, I see little opportunity to do this. In fact, if I'm to maintain my freedom, I must go about my business, doing what I need to do, when and where I need to do it. Sometimes that means walk on or through some criminal's "territory." Most criminals can tell I'm not sheep. If they don't, oh well. But they can also tell that I'm not a rival for whatever it is they're doing, criminally speaking. Thus, they let me pass.

In the recent Virginia Citizens' Defense League alert regarding media coverage of 'lobby day', I found the following phrases,

...

I didn't see anything in there at all on the subject of "personal defense"; the word, "defense" does not occur at all in the entire alert, except as a part of the name of the Virginia Citizens' Defense League.

Ok. While I carry a firearm, and it's primarily for personal defense against animals with legs both two and four, I have three other reasons for exercising my 2nd Amendment rights. Reason two is for the procurement of sustenance. Reason three is for the detention of criminals (hope I never have to do that...). Reason four is for the reason hinted at in our Second Amendment, but detailed in a number of quotes by our Founding Fathers.

We are allowing ourselves to be placed on the defensive by our adoption of the characterizations made by the opponents of personal defense.

I do not believe the anti's are against personal defense. I believe they are ignorant or misguided hoplophobes (or both) who mistakenly believe that yanking firearms from the hands of honest, law-abiding citizens will "somehow" reduce "gun violence," which is perpetrated by criminals, not honest, law-abiding citizens. Put simply, they're 180 degrees off target.

It is obviously and plainly silly to have one's life governed by the worship of guns, but that's how we are portrayed.

I agree, but sadly, that's the picture some of us paint, particularly with dozens of firearms and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo. As for me, I have what I need. That might be one firearm, that might be three. The number of rounds might be 16+1, it might be a thousand.

As to the question of "what's enough?" the proper answer will always be "when you run out, it's not enough." We aviators had a saying: "There's nothing more useless than the runway behind you." On a point of common sense, however, ten miles of runway is just plain stupid (not to mention unnecessarily expensive).

In summary, I've fully and thoroughly assessed my needs, and I have enough ammo and firearms to meet my needs. Yes, I've factored in some pad for "mom and the kids."

t is also silly to be focused on "the Second Amendment rights", because that is a mere abstraction, a principle.

On this point, I couldn't disagree with you more, particularly during an election year. Our system of government is good! Provided we follow it. It was founded by a large, but not too large, group of people who were scholars, statesmen, and businessmen. Many were lawyers. They'd studied history. They knew what good government looked like, and they knew what to avoid. They worked very hard to imbue our Constitution with their learned experience, and as we've followed our Constitution, our nation has done very well. Yet, when we've departed from our Constitution, we've suffered, often tremendously.

My point is that adherence to or departure from our Constitution serves as a very clear litmus test, not only during elections but for all other affairs of state. As voters, however, voting is our most important input, but letters to Congress and appointments to local, county, and state legislatures also come to mind. These are indeed the folks who either directly or indirectly affect current and future outcomes throughout our country. Some of them rise to become a governor, and a few, eventually, a Congressman, Federal Judge, or President.

This, it very severely behooves us to pay attention! But by what standard? Well, how about that old Constitution of ours? Ultimately, that's indeed what each of us, if not our entire country, will be measured, at least on temporal terms.

In summary, do not discount Constitutionalism. Ever. It's the cornerstone of far more than our government and way of life.

We are not being characterized as people who are interested in the practical implementation of that principle for the very good reasons for which that Amendment was added to the Constitution. Instead, we are characterized as people who worship some peculiar abstract principle, choosing one out of the entire Bill of Rights, and that we carry guns in the mistaken belief that the document says we can.

Good point. To that end, we should ensure we're giving a fair amount of voice to violations of other amendments. However, I've observed that's precisely what we here at OCDO actually do! :banana:

What we don't seem to get is that is precisely why we are portrayed in that way - it conveys the image that we represent a threat to society.

This is why I consistently use the term "honest, law-abiding citizen." It is, after all, precisely what we are, and I suggest others use the term as well.

...socially responsible, intellectually honest, and law-abiding citizens who recognize the dangers inherent in living in a world populated by humans, and who wish to have the capability of defending themselves, their homes, and their familes.

That's another, but good way of describing ourselves.

Rather than being seen as the cornerstone of national defense...

As a retired officer of the United States Air Force, I can assure you that we citizens are not the cornerstone of national defense! Consider this: Just one of the twenty warheads I used to carry contained more destructive power than every chemical explosive used in wartime from the dawn of time until present, including the two nuclear warheads used in WWII. I've come to peace with that responsibility, as have my brothers in arms. We'll never forget our pivotal role in history, however, actually helping to keep our race from destroying itself, a point towards which we approached several times.

I hope I've put things in perspective. In that perspective, as one who is no longer a part of that system but one of The People (as if I or any of my brothers in arms ever left...), I will affirm the intentions of our Founding Fathers that we are most certainly the last line of defense.

...we are characterized as a threat to national defense...

Wrongly so, as we are an adjunct to our nation's defenses.

..by people who support a governmental structure that has reason to fear its own citizens and wants the populace to be defenseless and dependent.

The very idea of a defenseless and dependent populace is at the very heart of a controlling, oppressive government, the very government our Revolution overthrew and saw fit to prevent from every taking control of our nation again. They did so by means of our Constitution. I keep coming back to this... Is anyone getting the drift?

When we buy into the opposition's view that it's all about guns, then there is no difference between ourselves and the violent criminals we seek the means to defend ourselves from. A man with a gun is a man with a gun, when the focus is on the gun. My suggestion: Stop talking about guns! Start talking about "personal defense". Promote your right to personal defense. It's all about personal defense, it's not about the guns. When you take out Badguy who's broken into your house at 2:00 a.m. and is threatening your children, what difference does it make whether you use a baseball bat or a shotgun, as long as it's effective?

user, the flaw with your entire line of argument is that you set things up quite perfectly for a higher level to step in and say, "We're your line of personal defense! Trust us! Call us! We'll take care of you!"

As one who has made half a dozen 911 calls over the years, I can attest their record so far as the calls I've made is precisely 0. Well, not quite. They dispersed the gathered crowds. I keep calling them in situations decidedly out of the norm because they may very well help provide a backup service, while providing a recording service that's been readily admissible in court.

...we have no part in any such "debate", because we're about the present right, power, and duty of citizens to defend themselves, their homes, and their families.

In accordance with one of the four pillars behind our Second Amendment, I propose we instead divert our attention back to the Constitution. Why? Because like countless arguments, it's a document, set in law, as the foundation of our country. We never need to argue against it, as it stands on it's own. All we need do is defend it.

Instead, let's put THEM on the defensive, and ask them to join in the "personal defense debate" against the people who strive to outlaw personal defense. Stop explaining why we favor "gun rights" and demand that they explain why they are opposed to our being able to defend ourselves from violent criminals.

I'm sorry, user, but I find this line of effort very thin with respect to US simply being the citizens of the United States of America as we are empowered by our Constitution to be.

In closing, I'll never allow anyone to water down who we are, where, or why, for any reason whatsoever. We are who we are because throughout centuries past we survived.
 
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