Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Interesting article by Leo R. Sandy

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029

    Interesting article by Leo R. Sandy


  2. #2
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media. I can see some basis for it but personal experience not just from media as well as "opinions" or "facts" handed down intentionally by social classes, parenting, ideals from teachers/parents/high standing authority figures in the community they are involved in(or lack of involvement in some cases(home school and/or lack of social awareness in general)), etc as authority figures all shape the "super ego" and shape how the "ego" is able to control primal urges fed to it by the "Id". For instance "projection" noted on the forum here at least once that I have seen and quite aptly i might add has a large effect on the basis or moral law acquired by credulous minds(children). In this case the fear of "well if I cannot fire a gun you must not be able" or "OH NO! You have a gun and I've heard from a person I know that a person they know that they know 4 times removed watched a sidearm jump out of the holster and kill everyone so I don't like guns at all and neither should you." I won't go into religious upbringing because I have made my point and religion tends to be taboo in many social settings for which I'm not going to debate publicly.

    .02

    -Sorcice.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    Oh and thanks Nemo! I did enjoy the article. .

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    That was an interesting article. I'd have to say that Correlation does not imply causation though. Instead of violence in media, let's look at sex in the media for example. America is a pretty prudish nation as compared to many others. Movies, games, and other media can show a lot of violence and still be rated OK for those under 18. Mix in a boob however; and it's rated R quicker than quick. Not only do I find this completely asinine - that somehow violence is OK but sex is bad - but kids are still having sex, getting pregnant and looking at porn. By the premise of this article, you'd think the opposite would be true. I've played all kinds of violent video games and watched tons of violent movies yet I would never want to kill someone. I don't think I'm an exception either. This problem isn't with the media, it's something a lot deeper IMHO.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,318
    I do disagree with Grossman regarding video games causes violence. I even told that to his face when he was here. If it were true, we'd have millions of gamers going out and committing heinous crimes.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    Yes. Very nice point. There's actually a documentary about the movie rating system that is not so much for informed decision making but pushing agendas of the people on it. Many theaters will not show a movie without a rating so if the film makers do not bend to the will of this council they are SOL. Here's the title:This Film Is Not Yet Rated (2006 Documentary)
    Last edited by Sorcice; 01-17-2012 at 01:22 PM.

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest

    Review, Killing for their Country: A New Look at “Killology”, Robert Engen

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media.
    http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engen
    Grossman has become a serious contributor to popular knowledge on military psychology, and his popularity owes much to the wide acceptance of his theories on the human act of killing. These theories are highly revisionist, and claim that normal, healthy human beings – including trained soldiers – are physiologically and psychologically incapable of killing one another. For Grossman, this translates into a belief that “everything you think you know about war is based on 5,000 years of lies.”4 Only since the end of the Second World War have the Western nations discovered ways of psychologically conditioning their soldiers to kill others in face-to-face combat, Grossman claims. Prior to that, only a tiny fraction of the most elite (or psychotic) soldiers were capable of overcoming their innate resistance to killing.

    [ ... ]

    The evidence seems to indicate that, contrary to Grossman’s ideas, killing is a natural, if difficult, part of human behaviour, and that killology’s belief that soldiers and the population at large are only being able to kill as part of programmed behaviour (or as a symptom of mental illness) hinders our understanding of the actualities of warfare. A flawed understanding of how and why soldiers can kill is no more helpful to the study of military history than it is to practitioners of the military profession. More research in this area is required, and On Killing and On Combat should be treated as the starting points, rather than the culmination, of this process.

    This article will analyze two major areas of evidence for Grossman’s theory: his biological-psychological theories on human nature, and his citing of military history to substantiate his extraordinary claims. I am not an expert in biology or psychology, but even a layman’s reading of the literature turns up credible works that clash with Grossman’s interpretations. And in terms of military history, Grossman’s over-reliance upon S.L.A. Marshall’s famous “ratio of fire” data represents a serious shortcoming. These matters must be discussed in some depth.

    [ ... ]

    Unfortunately, these ideas seem inconsistent with what scientists and researchers tell us about human behaviour, which is far richer and more complicated than Grossman acknowledges. Despite what “killology” teaches, an innate biological resistance to killing is neither simple nor consistently demonstrable in human beings. There is much that we do not know about biology, evolution, and the place of humanity in nature, but our best current knowledge does not lend much support to Grossman’s theories.
    Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

    http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civ.../dp/0195119126

    Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

    http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Ke...ilization.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Franson
    The peace of the primitives before civilization is false to fact, contradicted by the archaeological and ethnographical evidence.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-17-2012 at 01:32 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    Thanks hhk .

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp

    Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

    http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civ.../dp/0195119126

    Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

    http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Ke...ilization.html
    After reading all of that stuff; I've come to the conclusion that there is in fact a natural aversion to killing ingrained into humans. In short; it takes work and incurs risk. Unless the person is psychologically damaged; and not taking other moral aversions to killing into account, isn't it simply risk vs. reward? Wouldn't that be the simplest argument to hold up against natural selection?

    The first link also skims over the fact that it is in a social animals best interest not to kill when fighting over mates as the "betas" in the pack do other worthwhile work as far as fending off enemies and helping to hunt or collect food for the others. In not so social species this wouldn't prove true but humans are definitely a social species. Once again, if I'm a wolf; why risk death fighting Fred over Jane when Fred is useful to me. Better just to show I'm tougher and wind up with a few bruises so he can bring me a nice Elk steak later. Risk vs. reward.

    Now let's look at the military again. The soldiers that truly believe what they are doing is worth the risk and in their or their societies best interest will have less aversion to killing than others who think the war is stupid and their commanders are idiots. This is why a draft is such a bad idea!
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-17-2012 at 01:48 PM.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  10. #10
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    Really wish there was a +1/-1 clickable on this forum. At any rate +1.

  11. #11
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Terra, Sol
    Posts
    2,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media.
    Not me. This lame argument has been going on for 30 or more years. Yet the streets do not run red with blood.*






    *Except in Battlefield III.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Not me. This lame argument has been going on for 30 or more years. Yet the streets do not run red with blood.*






    *Except in Battlefield III.
    That was my point. I don't care how many books you write if the science behind the book is flawed and biased. Hence wondering if there were even a study done and what parameters used(region, gender, social status, etc). Bad science is bad science.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Terra, Sol
    Posts
    2,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    Hence wondering if there were even a study done and what parameters used(region, gender, social status, etc).

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html

    Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts
    By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
    Published: May 23, 2011


    The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

    Crime is down yet entertainment gets more violent. There have never been more violent video games sold. The latest release of Modern Warfare broke all kinds of records.

    Can't study something that isn't there. {shrugs}

    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 01-17-2012 at 04:30 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029
    Hmmm I wonder what Cain would have to say. Man is a predator. The highest on the food chain. Is the only change between man and other predators morality. Just wondering.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    382
    IMO, morality is a perspective more than a set standard of rules. The only thing that separates us from other species is being self-aware and having an evolved communication. The primal side is still there however dormant. By perspective I mean we look outside ourselves for what society deems ok and that becomes the "morality" we follow. It's mutually beneficial to live amoung others vs alone.

  16. #16
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    923

    War Before Civilization should be read by every thinking individual

    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp

    Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

    http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civ.../dp/0195119126

    Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

    http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Ke...ilization.html
    I read War Before Civilization several years ago. It changes your view of the world, explains much about how we have been deceived.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029
    Exactly. "The primal side is still there however dormant".

  18. #18
    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladpuncher - Some other board
    I have killed more people than Hitler. It's true. I have murdered millions of Nazis and slaughtered as many dragons. I have raped Native Americans and killed hundreds of thousands of cops. I have killed aliens that looked like pigs dressed as cops. I have destroyed feminism by flashing cash at strippers. I have committed genocide. I have wiped the earth clean of barbarians, Romans, Egyptians, Germans, and the Mongols. I have brought sword to creatures great and small because they may be carrying gold. I have killed creatures and then thrown away anything they were carrying because I did not deem it worthy. I have lied, cheated and double crossed denizens of the wasteland, a fairy kingdom, an ancient alien race and time travelers. I have shot mutants and bounty hunters in the groin and face. After killing someone else who I have never met and who had done me no wrong I crouched over his dead body and tea bagged him. I have enslaved a star faring race and then traded those slaves for military secrets. I have spied on other countries, planets and star systems and sabotaged numerous public works to cause strife and disorder. I have starved cities and brought whips down on my workers so that they may finish great works in my name before someone else did the same. I have stabbed kings and rezoned miles of pristine wilderness into ash spewing city hell holes. I have built nuclear reactors and then let them go critical so that I may laugh at the death toll and then, while the people were still putting out the atomic fires, I have unleashed Godzilla and a hurricane onto them. I have built swimming pools and then removed the exit ladders to watch people drown. I have smashed buildings to grab people inside and then eat them.

    All of these simulations have trained me well in the off chance I am ever presented with the ability to be an omnipotent, immortal, time traveling, alien, city building, world conquering, sword wielding, post apocalyptic, giant fire breathing, car jacking last great hope for humanity...who also happens to be a complete and total bastard.
    Video games may train the responses and reflexes, however they do not train intent. That comes from bad parenting, bad environment (crime ridden cities) or psychopathic genetics.

    Whatever video games do or don't do, they don't effect my right to defend myself and my family, and they don't effect my right to possess, practice with, and use tools that make that defense possible or efficient. Period.
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,508
    Leo Sandy is an overt hoplophobe who wants to use the guns of the state to make sure no one else has any.

    His comments on freekeene.com to the "Guns on campus" activism at Plymouth State were... well, epic. Very telling that a psychologist indulges in such Freudian projection.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •