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Interesting article by Leo R. Sandy

Sorcice

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I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media. I can see some basis for it but personal experience not just from media as well as "opinions" or "facts" handed down intentionally by social classes, parenting, ideals from teachers/parents/high standing authority figures in the community they are involved in(or lack of involvement in some cases(home school and/or lack of social awareness in general)), etc as authority figures all shape the "super ego" and shape how the "ego" is able to control primal urges fed to it by the "Id". For instance "projection" noted on the forum here at least once that I have seen and quite aptly i might add has a large effect on the basis or moral law acquired by credulous minds(children). In this case the fear of "well if I cannot fire a gun you must not be able" or "OH NO! You have a gun and I've heard from a person I know that a person they know that they know 4 times removed watched a sidearm jump out of the holster and kill everyone so I don't like guns at all and neither should you." I won't go into religious upbringing because I have made my point and religion tends to be taboo in many social settings for which I'm not going to debate publicly.

.02

-Sorcice.
 

Brass Magnet

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That was an interesting article. I'd have to say that Correlation does not imply causation though. Instead of violence in media, let's look at sex in the media for example. America is a pretty prudish nation as compared to many others. Movies, games, and other media can show a lot of violence and still be rated OK for those under 18. Mix in a boob however; and it's rated R quicker than quick. Not only do I find this completely asinine - that somehow violence is OK but sex is bad - but kids are still having sex, getting pregnant and looking at porn. By the premise of this article, you'd think the opposite would be true. I've played all kinds of violent video games and watched tons of violent movies yet I would never want to kill someone. I don't think I'm an exception either. This problem isn't with the media, it's something a lot deeper IMHO.
 

protias

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I do disagree with Grossman regarding video games causes violence. I even told that to his face when he was here. If it were true, we'd have millions of gamers going out and committing heinous crimes.
 

Sorcice

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Yes. Very nice point. There's actually a documentary about the movie rating system that is not so much for informed decision making but pushing agendas of the people on it. Many theaters will not show a movie without a rating so if the film makers do not bend to the will of this council they are SOL. Here's the title:This Film Is Not Yet Rated (2006 Documentary)
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

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Review, Killing for their Country: A New Look at “Killology”, Robert Engen

I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media.

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp
Robert Engen said:
Grossman has become a serious contributor to popular knowledge on military psychology, and his popularity owes much to the wide acceptance of his theories on the human act of killing. These theories are highly revisionist, and claim that normal, healthy human beings – including trained soldiers – are physiologically and psychologically incapable of killing one another. For Grossman, this translates into a belief that “everything you think you know about war is based on 5,000 years of lies.”4 Only since the end of the Second World War have the Western nations discovered ways of psychologically conditioning their soldiers to kill others in face-to-face combat, Grossman claims. Prior to that, only a tiny fraction of the most elite (or psychotic) soldiers were capable of overcoming their innate resistance to killing.

[ ... ]

The evidence seems to indicate that, contrary to Grossman’s ideas, killing is a natural, if difficult, part of human behaviour, and that killology’s belief that soldiers and the population at large are only being able to kill as part of programmed behaviour (or as a symptom of mental illness) hinders our understanding of the actualities of warfare. A flawed understanding of how and why soldiers can kill is no more helpful to the study of military history than it is to practitioners of the military profession. More research in this area is required, and On Killing and On Combat should be treated as the starting points, rather than the culmination, of this process.

This article will analyze two major areas of evidence for Grossman’s theory: his biological-psychological theories on human nature, and his citing of military history to substantiate his extraordinary claims. I am not an expert in biology or psychology, but even a layman’s reading of the literature turns up credible works that clash with Grossman’s interpretations. And in terms of military history, Grossman’s over-reliance upon S.L.A. Marshall’s famous “ratio of fire” data represents a serious shortcoming. These matters must be discussed in some depth.

[ ... ]

Unfortunately, these ideas seem inconsistent with what scientists and researchers tell us about human behaviour, which is far richer and more complicated than Grossman acknowledges. Despite what “killology” teaches, an innate biological resistance to killing is neither simple nor consistently demonstrable in human beings. There is much that we do not know about biology, evolution, and the place of humanity in nature, but our best current knowledge does not lend much support to Grossman’s theories.

Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html

Franson said:
The peace of the primitives before civilization is false to fact, contradicted by the archaeological and ethnographical evidence.
 
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Brass Magnet

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http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp

Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html

After reading all of that stuff; I've come to the conclusion that there is in fact a natural aversion to killing ingrained into humans. In short; it takes work and incurs risk. Unless the person is psychologically damaged; and not taking other moral aversions to killing into account, isn't it simply risk vs. reward? Wouldn't that be the simplest argument to hold up against natural selection?

The first link also skims over the fact that it is in a social animals best interest not to kill when fighting over mates as the "betas" in the pack do other worthwhile work as far as fending off enemies and helping to hunt or collect food for the others. In not so social species this wouldn't prove true but humans are definitely a social species. Once again, if I'm a wolf; why risk death fighting Fred over Jane when Fred is useful to me. Better just to show I'm tougher and wind up with a few bruises so he can bring me a nice Elk steak later. Risk vs. reward.

Now let's look at the military again. The soldiers that truly believe what they are doing is worth the risk and in their or their societies best interest will have less aversion to killing than others who think the war is stupid and their commanders are idiots. This is why a draft is such a bad idea!
 
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HandyHamlet

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I'd like to see the studies that prove his theories regarding the violence immune system of children being effected by violence in the media.

Not me. This lame argument has been going on for 30 or more years. Yet the streets do not run red with blood.*
[video=dailymotion;x7ms4v]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ms4v_saturday-night-live-weekend-update_fun[/video]





*Except in Battlefield III.
 

Sorcice

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Not me. This lame argument has been going on for 30 or more years. Yet the streets do not run red with blood.*
[video=dailymotion;x7ms4v]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ms4v_saturday-night-live-weekend-update_fun[/video]





*Except in Battlefield III.

That was my point. I don't care how many books you write if the science behind the book is flawed and biased. Hence wondering if there were even a study done and what parameters used(region, gender, social status, etc). Bad science is bad science.
 

HandyHamlet

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Hence wondering if there were even a study done and what parameters used(region, gender, social status, etc).


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html

Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: May 23, 2011


The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.


Crime is down yet entertainment gets more violent. There have never been more violent video games sold. The latest release of Modern Warfare broke all kinds of records.

Can't study something that isn't there. {shrugs}

:D
 
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Sorcice

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IMO, morality is a perspective more than a set standard of rules. The only thing that separates us from other species is being self-aware and having an evolved communication. The primal side is still there however dormant. By perspective I mean we look outside ourselves for what society deems ok and that becomes the "morality" we follow. It's mutually beneficial to live amoung others vs alone.
 

ccwinstructor

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War Before Civilization should be read by every thinking individual

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp

Full disclosure requires that I cite my classmate's War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley

http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Review of War Before Civilization by Robert Wilfred Franson

http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html

I read War Before Civilization several years ago. It changes your view of the world, explains much about how we have been deceived.
 

RR_Broccoli

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Saladpuncher - Some other board said:
I have killed more people than Hitler. It's true. I have murdered millions of Nazis and slaughtered as many dragons. I have raped Native Americans and killed hundreds of thousands of cops. I have killed aliens that looked like pigs dressed as cops. I have destroyed feminism by flashing cash at strippers. I have committed genocide. I have wiped the earth clean of barbarians, Romans, Egyptians, Germans, and the Mongols. I have brought sword to creatures great and small because they may be carrying gold. I have killed creatures and then thrown away anything they were carrying because I did not deem it worthy. I have lied, cheated and double crossed denizens of the wasteland, a fairy kingdom, an ancient alien race and time travelers. I have shot mutants and bounty hunters in the groin and face. After killing someone else who I have never met and who had done me no wrong I crouched over his dead body and tea bagged him. I have enslaved a star faring race and then traded those slaves for military secrets. I have spied on other countries, planets and star systems and sabotaged numerous public works to cause strife and disorder. I have starved cities and brought whips down on my workers so that they may finish great works in my name before someone else did the same. I have stabbed kings and rezoned miles of pristine wilderness into ash spewing city hell holes. I have built nuclear reactors and then let them go critical so that I may laugh at the death toll and then, while the people were still putting out the atomic fires, I have unleashed Godzilla and a hurricane onto them. I have built swimming pools and then removed the exit ladders to watch people drown. I have smashed buildings to grab people inside and then eat them.

All of these simulations have trained me well in the off chance I am ever presented with the ability to be an omnipotent, immortal, time traveling, alien, city building, world conquering, sword wielding, post apocalyptic, giant fire breathing, car jacking last great hope for humanity...who also happens to be a complete and total bastard.

Video games may train the responses and reflexes, however they do not train intent. That comes from bad parenting, bad environment (crime ridden cities) or psychopathic genetics.

Whatever video games do or don't do, they don't effect my right to defend myself and my family, and they don't effect my right to possess, practice with, and use tools that make that defense possible or efficient. Period.
 

KBCraig

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Leo Sandy is an overt hoplophobe who wants to use the guns of the state to make sure no one else has any.

His comments on freekeene.com to the "Guns on campus" activism at Plymouth State were... well, epic. Very telling that a psychologist indulges in such Freudian projection.
 
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