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Indiana Senate: Citizens have the right to resist illegal police entry.

JoeSparky

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Verd

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Great. I just have one little question. How can one determine at the time of the "illegal police entry" that it was actually an illegal entry? Seems like making an inaccurate determination could place one at significant legal risk!

The bill specifies under what circumstances police could enter a home: with a warrant, in pursuit of a fleeing criminal suspect, to prevent someone from being harmed or at the invitation of a resident.

Otherwise, a resident could use reasonable force, including a gun if necessary, to prevent entry.

I.E. if the police barge into your home with a SWAT team, then you can take shots at them. They would only be able to enter your home if they are following a fleeing suspect, if they known and present their warrent prior to entry, to prevent someone inside from being harmed, or at the invitation of the person(s) who live there. Too many stories have made the rounds showcasing a SWAT team or plice team breaking down a door and enter a home, some without even calling out that it is the police, and shooting at the inhabitants without any concrete cause.
 

JoeSparky

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I.E. if the police barge into your home with a SWAT team, then you can take shots at them. They would only be able to enter your home if they are following a fleeing suspect, if they known and present their warrent prior to entry, to prevent someone inside from being harmed, or at the invitation of the person(s) who live there. Too many stories have made the rounds showcasing a SWAT team or plice team breaking down a door and enter a home, some without even calling out that it is the police, and shooting at the inhabitants without any concrete cause.

My question still stands in the case of a no-knock warrant.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

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Wisconsin's new Castle Doctrine requires public safety workers to identify themselves or be at risk. Home invaders are well known to shout POLICE as they break down the door. The home owner should not have to wait until the offense is completed to see the identification of public safety workers. Absent exigent circumstances a warrant should be served in business hours after notice is made.
 

skidmark

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My question still stands in the case of a no-knock warrant.

I am not going to bother trying to look it up, but my guess would be that under Indiana law/jurisprudence a no-knock warrant is not legal. Or perhaps not sanctioned by the State Constitution. Or violates The Common Law and therefore is not permitted (less sure of this given the history of the NWT, but that's why they are not legal/lawful in Virginia:D.)

stay safe.
 

JoeSparky

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I am not going to bother trying to look it up, but my guess would be that under Indiana law/jurisprudence a no-knock warrant is not legal. Or perhaps not sanctioned by the State Constitution. Or violates The Common Law and therefore is not permitted (less sure of this given the history of the NWT, but that's why they are not legal/lawful in Virginia:D.)

stay safe.

My query was limited to the earlierly linked proposed state legislation.
 

Verd

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Looks like it is a bill written in order to counteract the following: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/88027.html

May 13, 2011
Indiana Supreme Court Upholds the 'Rapist Doctrine': Don't Resist -- You'll Just Make It Worse
Posted by William Grigg on May 13, 2011 10:40 AM
The Indiana State Supreme Court has just nullified the Fourth Amendment and the equivalent provision of that state’s constitution, in addition to "a common law dating back to the English Magna Carta of 1215," notes a wire service report. In a 3–2 decision, the court has ruled that Indiana residents have no right to obstruct unlawful police incursions into their homes.

“We believe … a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence,” wrote Justice Steven David. “We also find that allowing resistance unnecessarily escalates the level of violence and therefore the risk of injuries to all parties involved without preventing the arrest.”
 

hermannr

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I am pretty sure this is in response to that Indiana Supreme Court ruling also. It is a good proposed law. The proper procedure is to know where you are, knock, wait, present your credentials (ie the warrent) and then enter.

The whole stupid "war on drugs" where the mentality as become "get the conviction at any cost" "what rights, they are criminals, they have no rights". Proper presentation of the warrent is safer for everyone, LEO, innocent citizen, and criminal.

The US is no place for jack booted thug tactics.
 

Citizen

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My question still stands in the case of a no-knock warrant.

You may not be able to. But, this may be one of those things where the statute isn't really for the purpose of authorizing it before the fact, as covering your butt after the fact.

A few bad guys bang on the door, you grab the gun, they come thru the door with guns, you shoot at them and they backpedal. You realize they are police. Being a good citizen, you comply with orders to lay down your gun and submit to arrest. Now it goes to court. The evidence shows their warrant was defective, or maybe they did not follow some proceduce like definitely announcing their presence. You're found not guilty.
 

Vitaeus

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In the case of most of us (assumption) if someone shouts "police" and smashes in my front door, my first thought is not "Oh ****, they found out", it will be "Burglars" as I am not doing anything that would justify a legal warrant. The results will likely be gunfire and a cleaning bill. Your mileage and response may vary.
 

TechnoWeenie

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In the case of most of us (assumption) if someone shouts "police" and smashes in my front door, my first thought is not "Oh ****, they found out", it will be "Burglars" as I am not doing anything that would justify a legal warrant. The results will likely be gunfire and a cleaning bill. Your mileage and response may vary.

See sig.:lol:
 

OC for ME

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Wisconsin's new Castle Doctrine requires public safety workers to identify themselves or be at risk. Home invaders are well known to shout POLICE as they break down the door. The home owner should not have to wait until the offense is completed to see the identification of public safety workers. Absent exigent circumstances a warrant should be served in business hours after notice is made.
I disagree, unless the cops have to save a life or prevent a violent felony, there is no circumstance that justifies a bunch of cops to breakdown any doors. Attempting to prevent the occupants from flushing a baggie of weed down the toilet does not rise to a level where a full tactical assault is deemed necessary. If it is about drugs, the occupants will get more drugs and then you can get them, later.
 

JoeSparky

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You may not be able to. But, this may be one of those things where the statute isn't really for the purpose of authorizing it before the fact, as covering your butt after the fact.

A few bad guys bang on the door, you grab the gun, they come thru the door with guns, you shoot at them and they backpedal. You realize they are police. Being a good citizen, you comply with orders to lay down your gun and submit to arrest. Now it goes to court. The evidence shows their warrant was defective, or maybe they did not follow some proceduce like definitely announcing their presence. You're found not guilty.

I really suspect in this case there would ZERO back pedaling and I would actually found dead in my home after the bullets stopped flying in this HYPOTHETICAL and the officers found to have not violated any of their processes or procedures after the review!
 

Aknazer

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I really suspect in this case there would ZERO back pedaling and I would actually found dead in my home after the bullets stopped flying in this HYPOTHETICAL and the officers found to have not violated any of their processes or procedures after the review!

There was a recent case where the cops had the wrong house, busted in the door, and it ended with an Iraqi vet killing one and injuring six before he was injured and the shooting stopped (I don't know if they arrested him or not). If this were to have happened in Indiana then the proposed law would either be a defense in court or it could flat out prevent the case from going to court (depends on how the law is written).
 

Potent Dagger

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I have a hard time with this.

As a citizen, who has the same constitutional rights as any other, I insist that police officers adhere to the restrictions placed on them not only with regard to search warrants, but also to arrests and investigatory detentions. These rules were set by the founding fathers, and based on subsequent jurisprudence, not because they thought they were just good ideas, but due to the long history of suffering from the abuses of an oppressive government.

However as a former LEO at both the Federal and State levels, I caution those who read such laws and court decisions and assume that with the law or court decision on their side, that they will prevail in such a situation. Police officers come to a search warrant with sufficient man power and fire power to meet any anticipated resistance they will encounter. They also have the ability to rapidly summon other officers who will enter the fray with less than a total understanding of the situation other than they are being summoned by one of their own, a brother officer, who is in need of assistance.

I give you the following scenario as an example of how out of hand things can get. Bill is a law abiding and god fearing man who has never broken a law in his life other than a couple of speeding thickets. Bill has a son, Bob who is a POS. Bob got in with a wrong crowd and has started dealing drugs. Bob recently sold drugs to an undercover officer, and said officer has reason to believe Bob keep his drugs in Bills house, where he lives with his parents. The police officers obtain a warrant and because Bob is also known to carry a gun, they ask for a no knock warrant. Bill is at home drinking his morning coffee when the police kick in his front door, Bill thinks he is being robbed. Bill picks up his 38 revolver and starts throwing lead, the officers return fire, Bill is shot dead. A subsequent search turns up no drugs in the residence, and a subsequent investigation reveals that the undercover officer lied about knowing that Bob stored his drugs in the home where he lived.

In this scenario, the fact that the officer lied about knowing drugs were in the house made the warrant to search the home unlawful. The officers actions in searching the house were unlawful. Under this doctrine, Bill was entitled to defend his home,,,,,,,,,but Bill is just as dead.

A law or court decision that gives you the right to resist an unlawful arrest or search of your abode, will be of little comfort to you, or you family, at your funeral.

Both as a citizen who believes in the Constitutional restrictions placed on LEO's, and as a former LEO, if you know that an officers actions are illegal, the place to present that is in a court, not at the point of gun in a contest of wills where the odds are distinctly stacked against you.

If you think the officers are wrong, shut the hell up, demand your attorney, seek judicial sanctions, file officer conduct complaints, and then sue their collective butts off.
 

okiebryan

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I have a hard time with this.

As a citizen, who has the same constitutional rights as any other, I insist that police officers adhere to the restrictions placed on them not only with regard to search warrants, but also to arrests and investigatory detentions. These rules were set by the founding fathers, and based on subsequent jurisprudence, not because they thought they were just good ideas, but due to the long history of suffering from the abuses of an oppressive government.

However as a former LEO at both the Federal and State levels, I caution those who read such laws and court decisions and assume that with the law or court decision on their side, that they will prevail in such a situation. Police officers come to a search warrant with sufficient man power and fire power to meet any anticipated resistance they will encounter. They also have the ability to rapidly summon other officers who will enter the fray with less than a total understanding of the situation other than they are being summoned by one of their own, a brother officer, who is in need of assistance.

I give you the following scenario as an example of how out of hand things can get. Bill is a law abiding and god fearing man who has never broken a law in his life other than a couple of speeding thickets. Bill has a son, Bob who is a POS. Bob got in with a wrong crowd and has started dealing drugs. Bob recently sold drugs to an undercover officer, and said officer has reason to believe Bob keep his drugs in Bills house, where he lives with his parents. The police officers obtain a warrant and because Bob is also known to carry a gun, they ask for a no knock warrant. Bill is at home drinking his morning coffee when the police kick in his front door, Bill thinks he is being robbed. Bill picks up his 38 revolver and starts throwing lead, the officers return fire, Bill is shot dead. A subsequent search turns up no drugs in the residence, and a subsequent investigation reveals that the undercover officer lied about knowing that Bob stored his drugs in the home where he lived.

In this scenario, the fact that the officer lied about knowing drugs were in the house made the warrant to search the home unlawful. The officers actions in searching the house were unlawful. Under this doctrine, Bill was entitled to defend his home,,,,,,,,,but Bill is just as dead.

A law or court decision that gives you the right to resist an unlawful arrest or search of your abode, will be of little comfort to you, or you family, at your funeral.

Both as a citizen who believes in the Constitutional restrictions placed on LEO's, and as a former LEO, if you know that an officers actions are illegal, the place to present that is in a court, not at the point of gun in a contest of wills where the odds are distinctly stacked against you.

If you think the officers are wrong, shut the hell up, demand your attorney, seek judicial sanctions, file officer conduct complaints, and then sue their collective butts off.

And yet another innocent victim of law enforcement's war on drugs. This is another reason to do away with these damn no-knock warrants for this failed war on drugs. While we are at it, let's reexamine our laws where drugs are concerned.
 

OC for ME

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Actually, the execution of the bogus warrant would not be considered unlawful, unless, maybe, the undercover officer were part of the execution of the bogus no-knock warrant, because the officers executing the bogus warrant have no reasonable belief that the bogus warrant was issued under false pretenses. All of this information would be, as you state correctly, discovered after Bill is gunned down in his home by officers defending themselves from a armed and dangerous criminal, using deadly force to resist arrest. It does not matter that it is the LAC Bill, the officers think it is his POS son Bob.

I think that this statute RSMo 575.150 may apply in the scenario that you have given.

In any event, the officers executing the warrant would likely not be found liable RSMo 563.046. The undercover officer at worst would face several misdemeanor charges for false statements/reports, even though Bill is now dead for defending himself and his home RSMo 563.031 and RSMo 563.041.

The issue remains, a citizen lawfully acting in defense of their person or their property, discovered after the fact of course, always has the burden to prove that their actions were lawful and that LEs actions were unlawful, if they survive. To simply state that the citizen is responsible for correcting wrongs committed by LE, whether those wrongs were intentional or unintentional, for the sole purpose of not causing physical harm, advocates that LE should never bear the burden of acting within the law beforehand.
 
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