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Thread: What Way is Better?

  1. #1
    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    What Way is Better?

    Now I know we can LOC here with one in the pipe but here's my question: since I'm trained on how to handle a fully-rocking M16, M4 & M9, I know what it's like to be "fully rolling", is it better to have one in the chamber with my G19 or do I leave it empty but full-mag'd in the well?

    Any and all opinions welcome...
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

  2. #2
    Regular Member renoglock22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DooFster View Post
    Now I know we can LOC here with one in the pipe but here's my question: since I'm trained on how to handle a fully-rocking M16, M4 & M9, I know what it's like to be "fully rolling", is it better to have one in the chamber with my G19 or do I leave it empty but full-mag'd in the well?

    Any and all opinions welcome...

    Well I always carry with one in the pipe. For 2 reasons, 1. that second it takes to chamber a round is precious when it's needed and 2. a mugger doesn't run around with an empty chamber.
    Last edited by renoglock22; 01-19-2012 at 12:19 PM.

  3. #3
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    I don't see the advantage of an empty chamber.

    A long gun however, in Nevada, cannot have a loaded chamber while in a vehicle.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 01-19-2012 at 12:47 PM.

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    My answer is carry what ever you're comfortable with. If the concern is about the Glock itself, thousands upon thousands of people and police carry Glocks chambered and ready to rock, it's really a non-issue.

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    I wouldn't trust that trigger tab as the only safety on a loaded pistol. Some of the early ones were prone to firing when the slide was impacted from the side.

    This means that I would not consider the Glock as a social pistol, and if REQUIRED to carry it, would keep the chamber empty, using the Israeli Draw to get it into action.

    That said, there are thousands upon thousands of people who carry the Glock with a loaded chamber, and never have a problem, so the odds of you having a problem are miniscule, if you carry in a holster that covers the trigger guard.

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:10 PM.

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    Absolutely. Also, if you've been hit already, and can't pull the slide back... it will be too late.

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    Personally, I would only ever carry with a round chambered and the gun ready to go.

    When I was a reserve officer at a department in California, the depart issue gun was a Colt .45 1911. I remember fearing that gun, because I saw the hammer back over a chambered round. I didn't want to carry it. There was just something about that configuration that bothered me.

    Instead, I carried my own S&W .357 revolver. We were only allowed to carry 38+P ammo with the .357 though. My partner also carried a revolver. He eventually got a .45 cal revolver, though.

    One of our officers had his holstered 1911 discharge on him when he bumped against a car; this just confirmed my fears about carrying the 1911 config. , even though I currently have no problem with carrying a chambered round in my Kahr (now my M&P9 compact).
    Last edited by ed2276; 01-19-2012 at 10:40 PM.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Except for a few weeks when I first started to carry and was still unsure of myself so I carried without when in the pipe until I built self-confidence, I have carried chambered for several years now. Mostly carried an XD and now primarly a 1911 cocked & locked. The vast majority of modern sidearms are well designed to only go bang when the trigger is pulled. Carry in a decent holster that fully covers the trigger is therefore pretty darn safe from any AD.

    Everything I have read and seen about using a firearm for self-defense on the steet is that everything often happens quite quickly. With the stress of such a situation, the mental processing to make a fight/flight/comply decision, etc I do not want the added stress of self-defense tool status worries. Carrying chambered just removes one more thing I need to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    I wouldn't trust that trigger tab as the only safety on a loaded pistol. Some of the early ones were prone to firing when the slide was impacted from the side.

    This means that I would not consider the Glock as a social pistol, and if REQUIRED to carry it, would keep the chamber empty, using the Israeli Draw to get it into action.

    That said, there are thousands upon thousands of people who carry the Glock with a loaded chamber, and never have a problem, so the odds of you having a problem are miniscule, if you carry in a holster that covers the trigger guard.

    I think any gun carried should be in a holster that blocks the trigger. And the trigger tab is not the only safety on a Glock... There is a firing pin block that only releases when the trigger is pulled, so as long as any Glock user keeps their finger off the trigger it won't go off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276 View Post
    One of our officers had his holstered 1911 discharge on him when he bumped against a car; this just confirmed my fears about carrying the 1911 config.
    I'd like to read the report on that. That's the same thing that happened to some of the early Glocks.

    Since the 1911 firing pin is spring-loaded away from the primer, it would have to be a hammer-drop or something got into the recess where the firing pin is and pressed on it sharply enough to drive it into the primer and make a spark.

    I'm going to predict that he had an over-gunsmithed sear, which not only disengaged from the hammer but let the half-cock notch bounce it out of the way. In the case of the Glocks, I think they found the sears were not fully engaging. In either case, a sharp impact against the side of the slide can cause the failure.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Everyone who carries on an empty chamber and survived their encounter will gladly confirm that they've had time to pull and rack their weapon.
    .
    .
    "Those that didn't have time to pull and rack won't say anything to counter that....They're too busy being dead."

    Can you absolutely guarantee that you'll always have two hands free?
    Can you guarantee that your wife, lover, sister, steady squeeze won't clamp down on one arm with the determination of an angry bear if they are frightened?
    Can you guarantee that you'll never carry anything that you'll want to set down gently?
    Can you guarantee no pets on a leash, lunging at the attacker or running with tail between its legs?
    Can you guarantee that no attacker will ever pin the arm you'll want to rack your weapon with?
    Can you guarantee that no attacker will ever wound the arm you'd be using to rack your weapon with?
    Can you guarantee that you'll never carry your precious daughter or handsome son in your arms, ever, lest you lose the arm that might save their lives?
    Can you guarantee that....?


    Life is full of risks, the secret lies in minimizing them. In your opinion, does an empty chamber minimize your risks?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-20-2012 at 11:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Life is full of risks, the secret lies in minimizing them. In your opinion, does an empty chamber minimize your risks?
    It would be better to ask WHICH risks you prefer to minimize.

    The recent gnomes v. ninjas example fits perfectly.

  14. #14
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Solve the issue with a modern DA revolver...

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

  15. #15
    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    Thanks for your inputs everyone... I wasn't quite sure what was smarter. ...and I'm still working on the self confidence thing so as I go along with LOC I will lock and load...
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    When the goblin comes, is there anyone who thinks the goblin is going to stop the individual he's about to mug and Then chamber a round, or is he going to already be prepared for his victim by already being locked and loaded?
    If some mook is smart enough to be prepared, shouldn't we be?

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DooFster View Post
    Thanks for your inputs everyone... I wasn't quite sure what was smarter. ...and I'm still working on the self confidence thing so as I go along with LOC I will lock and load...
    As I alluded above, I too had the self-confidence issue when I started carrying. My first carry sidearm was an XD which is also striker fired like the Glock. To build self-confidence, what I did was carry it cocked, with a loaded magazine, but unchambered for a while. Nightly I would check that it was still cocked, ie that I hadn't somehow "discharged" it during the day's carry. After a few weeks of never having an ND (on an empty chamber so I didn't hurt myself or someone else) I felt confident in carrying it chambered. I wasn't worried about the quality of the XDs design or passive safeties, but rather not yet confident that my carry method, pistol handling, holster, etc were sufficient to prevent an terrible accident. That self-confidence goes a long way towards comfort with carrying OC or CC.

    Another issue this thread has brought up is chambering the sidearm with one hand. This is a skill which, IMO, we should all know (and another reason to own snap caps for your carry sidearm). I practice this with all sidearms I carry, and re-train myself if I change sights. While one handed slide operation is not as fast as doing it 2 handed with an Israeli draw or otherwise, it could be a handy thing to know. To argue that a wounded strong side arm takes you out of the fight with a condition 3 sidearm as some above seem to allude is not only inaccurate, but defeatist.

    I'm going to have to do some personal re-education for the new pistol I bought as the low-profile, countoured sights probably won't give enough purchase for the technique I have typically used.

  18. #18
    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    What are the different conditions of carrying?
    Last edited by DooFster; 01-21-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

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    Condition 1: Ready To Rock

    In Condition One, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a full magazine inserted into the magazine well, and ready to fire. This state of readiness occurs just prior to firing the gun.

    Condition 2: Dangerous And Awkward

    In Condition Two, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a full magazine in place. Glocks cannot be carried in Condition Two as they have no external hammer. When a 1911 is carried in Condition Two, the thumb safety is off and the hammer is down. The grip safety is still in place but does not come into play until the hammer is brought back for firing.

    Condition 3: Full magazine, nothing in the chamber

    In Condition Three the chamber is empty and a full magazine is in place in the magazine well. Condition Three is applicable in both the 1911 and Glock systems and is a common method of carry for military organizations around the world.


    I pulled these definitions from the internet, not necessarily my opinion.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 01-21-2012 at 04:56 PM.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I believe the following in Jeff Cooper's original carry conditions - if I'm wrong someone will be along shortly to corret me :-P (yes I copied this from teh interwebs but it matches my memory and I was being too lazy to write it out myself). IIRC, this was developed re the traditional 1911. Some modern weapons, such as Glock/XD cannnot be in condition 2 and others, such as a Sig P-series with a de-cocker are designed to be carried in Condition 2 which is dangerous with a traditional 1911. What may be a dangerous condition for one particular firearm, may be the intended/desireable carry condition for another.

    Conditions of firearm carry:

    Condition 0. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is off.
    Condition 1. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is on.
    Condition 2. The chamber is loaded and the hammer is down
    Condition 3. The chamber is empty and the magazine is loaded
    Condition 4. The chamber is empty, the hammer is down, no magazine

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I believe the following in Jeff Cooper's original carry conditions - if I'm wrong someone will be along shortly to corret me :-P (yes I copied this from teh interwebs but it matches my memory and I was being too lazy to write it out myself). IIRC, this was developed re the traditional 1911. Some modern weapons, such as Glock/XD cannnot be in condition 2 and others, such as a Sig P-series with a de-cocker are designed to be carried in Condition 2 which is dangerous with a traditional 1911. What may be a dangerous condition for one particular firearm, may be the intended/desireable carry condition for another.

    Conditions of firearm carry:

    Condition 0. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is off.
    Condition 1. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is on.
    Condition 2. The chamber is loaded and the hammer is down
    Condition 3. The chamber is empty and the magazine is loaded
    Condition 4. The chamber is empty, the hammer is down, no magazine
    Thanks! Looks like a better list than I had.

    My FNH/FNP 40 is always in Condition 2 because it has a de-cocker and no safety and is designed to be carried in Condition 2.

  22. #22
    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    Condition 1: Ready To Rock

    In Condition One, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a full magazine inserted into the magazine well, and ready to fire. This state of readiness occurs just prior to firing the gun.

    Condition 2: Dangerous And Awkward

    In Condition Two, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a full magazine in place. Glocks cannot be carried in Condition Two as they have no external hammer. When a 1911 is carried in Condition Two, the thumb safety is off and the hammer is down. The grip safety is still in place but does not come into play until the hammer is brought back for firing.

    Condition 3: Full magazine, nothing in the chamber

    In Condition Three the chamber is empty and a full magazine is in place in the magazine well. Condition Three is applicable in both the 1911 and Glock systems and is a common method of carry for military organizations around the world.


    I pulled these definitions from the internet, not necessarily my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I believe the following in Jeff Cooper's original carry conditions - if I'm wrong someone will be along shortly to corret me :-P (yes I copied this from teh interwebs but it matches my memory and I was being too lazy to write it out myself). IIRC, this was developed re the traditional 1911. Some modern weapons, such as Glock/XD cannnot be in condition 2 and others, such as a Sig P-series with a de-cocker are designed to be carried in Condition 2 which is dangerous with a traditional 1911. What may be a dangerous condition for one particular firearm, may be the intended/desireable carry condition for another.

    Conditions of firearm carry:

    Condition 0. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is off.
    Condition 1. The chamber is loaded, the gun is cocked, and the safety is on.
    Condition 2. The chamber is loaded and the hammer is down
    Condition 3. The chamber is empty and the magazine is loaded
    Condition 4. The chamber is empty, the hammer is down, no magazine
    Sweet! Thanks for the reply on my second question! I have heard it before but couldn't remember...
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I carry a cocked-and-locked, condition 1, 1911. There is nothing unsafe about a hammer cocked over a loaded chamber in a properly designed and carried firearm. The Springfield Armory XD is a classic example of a striker-fired pistol with a fully cocked striker, needing only the passive safeties activated by a proper grip and trigger squeeze, yet you don't hear people whining about it. But they SEE the hammer on a 1911 and perceptions change, as with most things feared in life.

    ALL pistols carried need a holster which secures the trigger from accidental activation.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I believe the following in Jeff Cooper's original carry conditions
    Yes, these are the condition levels taught at Gunsite. I would point out that the "safety" referred to is a catch or block safety. By Gunsite standards, Conditions One and Two are not possible with a Glock, and Condition One is not possible with a pistol (such as the Walther P-38) which has a hammer-lowering system rather than a catch safety.

    However, the Browning P-35 has such an "atrocious" thumb safety that the SAS carries is in Condition Zero (the phrase was coined in a Gunsite Gossip comment describing the SAS method), and as long as you keep your finger out of the trigger guard this isn't a real problem, so this is how the Glock is taught at Gunsite.

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