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Thread: OC and drinking in a Class B

  1. #1
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    OC and drinking in a Class B

    I know this has been hashed out already. But.....the forum is kinda quite......

    Some people believe thier is a narrow loophole where someone can open carry and drink in a place that has been issued a class B liqour license.

    That very narrow looophole, which no sensible owner or manager would grant you, does not exist, under any circumstances, IF you have been issued a CCL.

    Some, that have said that they would just unconceal, if they wanted a drink, are in serious error.

  2. #2
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    And the proof is located... Where exactly...?
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I know this has been hashed out already. But.....the forum is kinda quite......

    Some people believe thier is a narrow loophole where someone can open carry and drink in a place that has been issued a class B liqour license.

    That very narrow looophole, which no sensible owner or manager would grant you, does not exist, under any circumstances, IF you have been issued a CCL.

    Some, that have said that they would just unconceal, if they wanted a drink, are in serious error.
    Lizzy's Green Cafe has given us permission. 941.237 did not go away because of Act 35. You can still consume if you have permission. However, if you are carrying, openly or concealed, and do not get permission to be in a class B liquor area, you cannot consume.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Greg,

    I cordially invite you to join us at Lizzy's one night.

    T






    Quote Originally Posted by msusnVet View Post
    Not gonna happen in any tavern or eat joint I am sitting in.
    Do they let unsupervised 12 yr olds in taverns up here?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 01-19-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msusnVet View Post
    Not gonna happen in any tavern or eat joint I am sitting in.

    While doing so may not be the brightest move one makes in life, those sound like a serious threat of violence to these ears. Would you care to take the opportunity to amplify and explain yourself before your words come back to bite you?

    stay safe.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    In Virginny, you can -only- OC and drink. Dunno if they changed it recently. Goofy laws. I think all law makers must get drunk before voting.

    They can't be that delusional.
    /Lewis Black.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question Hmm...Logic Error?

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I know this has been hashed out already. But.....the forum is kinda quite......

    Some people believe thier is a narrow loophole where someone can open carry and drink in a place that has been issued a class B liqour license.

    That very narrow looophole, which no sensible owner or manager would grant you, does not exist, under any circumstances, IF you have been issued a CCL.

    Some, that have said that they would just unconceal, if they wanted a drink, are in serious error.
    With that thought process "...IF you have been issued a CCL." Then I can also logically say "If you have been issued a CCL you MUST conceal carry at all times."

    It simply isn't true. It isn't a "loophole". It simply isn't against the law to open carry and consume alcoholic beverages.

    If a person cannot be trusted to have a beer and carry then why trust them to drink and drive?
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by msusnVet View Post
    Not gonna happen in any tavern or eat joint I am sitting in.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    While doing so may not be the brightest move one makes in life, those sound like a serious threat of violence to these ears. Would you care to take the opportunity to amplify and explain yourself before your words come back to bite you? stay safe.
    The only violence that I hear implied here is that received on the 'ride' by the scofflaw from the law enforcer that MsUSNVet called, reporting a violation of 941.237(3)(cx).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats.
    § 941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.
    The sub-paragraph (g) exception does not allow consumption, but only possession or use of a handgun.

    Please cut a bit of slack for MsUSNVet as s/he has not been welcome here, but for no good reason. Not every one drools honeyed poison into their comrades ears or eyes.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-19-2012 at 04:39 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    At first, I thought the topic revolved around a Class B RV....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Paul, it's a troll. Put it on ignore, or ban it.

    As for the "alcohol & carrying", there have been many discussions on this topic.
    Here's one: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...l-and-carrying
    [Yes, I misspelled it.]

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/RSB/STATS.HTML

    941.20 Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon
    (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant

    939.22(42)
    "Under the influence of an intoxicant" means that the actor's ability to operate a vehicle or handle a firearm or airgun is materially impaired because of his or her consumption of an alcohol beverage...

    If you find the definition of "materially impaired", it says 0.08% is prima facia [sp?] evidence.
    It does _not_ say that a lesser amount is _not_ impaired.
    So I suspect it would be harder to prove.
    Also bear in mind that things other than ETOH are intoxicants, including legal drugs.

    And if you dig into the Class B rules + firearms, it says nobody may carry a handgun into a class B premises w/o permission from the owner or manager.
    Long guns always have been & still are perfectly legal, license or no, premission or no.

    The new cc law says nobody carrying on a class B premises on a license may consume alcohol,
    AND
    carrying without express permission requires a license.

    So... when we go to Lizzie's, everyone carrys openly & leaves any licenses they may have in their vehicles because Adam & Lizzie most emphatically give permission.
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I know this has been hashed out already. But.....the forum is kinda quite......

    Some people believe thier is a narrow loophole where someone can open carry and drink in a place that has been issued a class B liqour license.

    That very narrow looophole, which no sensible owner or manager would grant you, does not exist, under any circumstances, IF you have been issued a CCL.

    Some, that have said that they would just unconceal, if they wanted a drink, are in serious error.
    I thought we had talked about this before.

    941.237 (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on anypremises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has
    been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer.
    (b) A correctional officer while going armed in the line of duty.
    (c) A member of the U.S. armed forces or national guard while
    going armed in the line of duty.
    (cm) A private security person meeting all of the following criteria:
    1. The private security person is covered by a license or permit
    issued under s. 440.26.
    2. The private security person is going armed in the line of
    duty.
    3. The private security person is acting with the consent of the
    person specified in par. (d).
    (cr) A qualified out−of−state law enforcement officer, as
    defined in s. 941.23 (1) (g), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (b) 1. to 3.
    applies.
    (ct) A former officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (c), to whom
    s. 941.23 (2) (c) 1. to 7. applies.
    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−
    of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or
    out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    (d) The licensee, owner, or manager of the premises, or any
    employee or agent authorized to possess a handgun by the
    licensee, owner, or manager of the premises.
    (e) The possession of a handgun that is unloaded and encased
    in a vehicle in any parking lot area.
    (f) The possession or use of a handgun at a public or private
    gun or sportsmen’s range or club.
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if
    authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or
    manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B”
    license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.
    (h) The possession of any handgun that is used for decoration
    if the handgun is encased, inoperable or secured in a locked condition.
    (i) The possession of a handgun in any portion of a hotel other
    than the portion of the hotel that is a tavern.
    (j) The possession of a handgun in any portion of a combination
    tavern and store devoted to other business if the store is owned
    or operated by a firearms dealer, the other business includes the
    sale of handguns and the handgun is possessed in a place other
    than a tavern.
    This was NOT changed by Act 35. So... I can drink while armed as long as I have permission of the 'owner or manager of the premises' as long as I don't also fall under 941.237(3)(cx).

    Please tell me why I am wrong?

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I thought we had talked about this before.
    This was NOT changed by Act 35. So... I can drink while armed as long as I have permission of the 'owner or manager of the premises' as long as I don't also fall under 941.237(3)(cx).

    Please tell me why I am wrong?
    Take me off ignore or read what I cut and pasted. The agent can only give permission to possess.

    The intent is is made clear - to me - in § 941.20, "Thou shall not ..."
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-19-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Take me off ignore or read what I cut and pasted. The agent can only give permission to possess.
    I saw what you posted, I guess I don't understand your point. (cx) is for carrying in a bar, open or concealed without explicit permission. To do that, you have to agree to not drink. (g) is for open carrying with explicit permission of the owner or manager and you don't give up your right to drink. As MKEgal said, there are other statutes that cover materially impaired while carrying and we need to be mindful of that but I still contend I can carry under (g) and drink.

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I still contend I can carry under (g) and drink.
    Don't be shy then, take MsUSNVet up on the offer.

    § 941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    If you carry a gun in a Class B joint you are guilty.

    § 941.237(3)(cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.

    If you gotta permit and are not drinking then you can have a gun.

    § 941.237(3)(g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

    The owners agent may authorize possession.

    If I'm wrong then YOU be the test case.

    Get off msusnVet's back or I'll start mashing the harassment button. I never Imagined we'd have to tolerate a cat fight here.

  15. #15
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Don't be shy then, take MsUSNVet up on the offer.

    § 941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    If you carry a gun in a Class B joint you are guilty.

    § 941.237(3)(cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.

    If you gotta permit and are not drinking then you can have a gun.

    § 941.237(3)(g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

    The owners agent may authorize possession.

    If I'm wrong then YOU be the test case.

    Get off msusnVet's back or I'll start mashing the harassment button. I never Imagined we'd have to tolerate a cat fight here.
    1. I buried the hatchet with msusnVet a long time ago.
    2. I have OC'ed and had a beer at the same time.
    3. Huh? I believe you are reading too much into it. Each part is separate. Obviously it is illegal to have a gun in a bar unless you meet ONE of the exemptions under (3). So..... (a) or (b) or (c) or (cx) or (....) or (g). (cx) has an implied AND that means you have to do (or not do in this case) both parts of (cx), have a license AND not drink. for (g), there is only one thing. Since by default I can drink, (2) says no handgun except for (3)(g).

  16. #16
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    If I'm wrong then YOU be the test case.

    Get off msusnVet's back or I'll start mashing the harassment button. I never Imagined we'd have to tolerate a cat fight here.
    Well I guess several of us have been test cases on multiple times already.

    And please do use that harassment button. m&mvet the troll is just that. A troll. It has been banned multiple times under multiple accounts. The first being Logables. The troll has utilized at least a half dozen fake accounts by my recollection... The only difference being while under previous accounts he threatened to stalk us, this time he offers proof he actually IS stalking us. Which is quite disturbing. That's why MKEgal keeps suggesting to put LOGABLES on ignore. HHK, we have been dealing with this stalker and troll for quite some time.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  17. #17
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    I am irritated that you have had to (when I last looked) disable PM's - BTDT - I would like you to parse your user name in PM.

    In re Ms USN Vet; A Squadron Engineer that worked with me (Cdr. Tom Degan, AS-40) was very proud of his 'lady nukes' and assigned me a great one that maintained a positive attitude through the cold-shoulder that the boats' crews gave her.

    In re MS USN Vet; As someone else has alluded here, a sub-sailor needs three shipboard friends, the quack, the yeo' and the MS cook.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-19-2012 at 06:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Well I guess several of us have been test cases on multiple times already.
    Getting away with it does not make a test case. Beating the rap makes a test case. MKEgal is a test case.

  19. #19
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    I am irritated that you have had to (when I last looked) disable PM's - BTDT - I would like you to parse your user name in PM.
    Who??????

  20. #20
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Getting away with it does not make a test case. Beating the rap makes a test case. MKEgal is a test case.
    We did it. We are still here. Nothing happened. Case closed.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  21. #21
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    940.32  Stalking

    I think "IT" has already volunteered "ITSELF' as a test case a few months back by already admitting to some of the following..........

    940.32(1)(a) (a) "Course of conduct" means a series of 2 or more acts carried out over time, however short or long, that show a continuity of purpose, including any of the following:
    940.32(1)(a)1. 1. Maintaining a visual or physical proximity to the victim.
    940.32(1)(a)2. 2. Approaching or confronting the victim.
    940.32(1)(a)6m. 6m. Photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or, through any other electronic means, monitoring or recording the activities of the victim. This subdivision applies regardless of where the act occurs.
    940.32(1)(cb) (cb) "Member of a family" means a spouse, parent, child, sibling, or any other person who is related by blood or adoption to another.
    940.32(1)(cd) (cd) "Member of a household" means a person who regularly resides in the household of another or who within the previous 6 months regularly resided in the household of another.
    940.32(1)(cg) (cg) "Personally identifiable information" has the meaning given in s. 19.62 (5).
    940.32(1)(cr) (cr) "Record" has the meaning given in s. 19.32 (2).
    940.32(1)(d) (d) "Suffer serious emotional distress" means to feel terrified, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or tormented. 940.32(2) (2) Whoever meets all of the following criteria is guilty of a Class I felony:
    940.32(2)(a) (a) The actor intentionally engages in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person under the same circumstances to suffer serious emotional distress or to fear bodily injury to or the death of himself or herself or a member of his or her family or household.
    940.32(2)(b) (b) The actor knows or should know that at least one of the acts that constitute the course of conduct will cause the specific person to suffer serious emotional distress or place the specific person in reasonable fear of bodily injury to or the death of himself or herself or a member of his or her family or household.
    940.32(2)(c) (c) The actor's acts cause the specific person to suffer serious emotional distress or induce fear in the specific person of bodily injury to or the death of himself or herself or a member of his or her family or household.
    940.32(2e)(b) (b) The actor knows or should know that the act will cause the specific person to suffer serious emotional distress or place the specific person in reasonable fear of bodily injury to or the death of himself or herself or a member of his or her family or household.
    940.32(2e)(c) (c) The actor's act causes the specific person to suffer serious emotional distress or induces fear in the specific person of bodily injury to or the death of himself or herself or a member of his or her family or household.
    940.32(2m) (2m) Whoever violates sub. (2) is guilty of a Class H felony if any of the following applies:
    940.32(2m)(a) (a) The actor has a previous conviction for a violent crime, as defined in s. 939.632 (1) (e) 1., or a previous conviction under this section or s. 947.013 (1r), (1t), (1v), or (1x).
    940.32(2m)(b) (b) The actor has a previous conviction for a crime, the victim of that crime is the victim of the present violation of sub. (2), and the present violation occurs within 7 years after the prior conviction.
    940.32(2m)(c) (c) The actor intentionally gains access or causes another person to gain access to a record in electronic format that contains personally identifiable information regarding the victim in order to facilitate the violation.
    940.32(2m)(d) (d) The person violates s. 968.31 (1) or 968.34 (1) in order to facilitate the violation.
    940.32(2m)(e) (e) The victim is under the age of 18 years at the time of the violation.
    940.32(3) (3) Whoever violates sub. (2) is guilty of a Class F felony if any of the following applies: 940.32(3)(a) (a) The act results in bodily harm to the victim or a member of the victim's family or household.
    940.32(3)(b) (b) The actor has a previous conviction for a violent crime, as defined in s. 939.632 (1) (e) 1., or a previous conviction under this section or s. 947.013 (1r), (1t), (1v) or (1x), the victim of that crime is the victim of the present violation of sub. (2), and the present violation occurs within 7 years after the prior conviction.
    940.32(3)(c) (c) The actor uses a dangerous weapon in carrying out any of the acts listed in sub. (1) (a) 1. to 9. 940.32(3m) (3m) A prosecutor need not show that a victim received or will receive treatment from a mental health professional in order to prove that the victim suffered serious emotional distress under sub. (2) (c) or (2e) (c).
    940.32(4) (4) 
    940.32(4)(a)(a) This section does not apply to conduct that is or acts that are protected by the person's right to freedom of speech or to peaceably assemble with others under the state and U.S. constitutions, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
    940.32(4)(a)1. 1. Giving publicity to and obtaining or communicating information regarding any subject, whether by advertising, speaking or patrolling any public street or any place where any person or persons may lawfully be.
    940.32(4)(a)2. 2. Assembling peaceably.
    940.32(4)(a)3. 3. Peaceful picketing or patrolling.
    940.32(4)(b) (b) Paragraph (a) does not limit the activities that may be considered to serve a legitimate purpose under this section.
    940.32(5) (5) This section does not apply to conduct arising out of or in connection with a labor dispute.
    940.32(6) (6) The provisions of this statute are severable. If any provision of this statute is invalid or if any application thereof is invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
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    Can Someone Please Tell Me . . . .

    What the H E Double Hockeysticks a " Class B " Liquor license is , and how it is different from a Class A ,C , et al ?





    Being from PA , I'm not use to as many bars as you'uns have here , and I've been here for ten years already !
    WI CCL # 27,4XX

  23. #23
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pennsylvanian View Post
    What the H E Double Hockeysticks a " Class B " Liquor license is , and how it is different from a Class A ,C , et al ?





    Being from PA , I'm not use to as many bars as you'uns have here , and I've been here for ten years already !
    Don't know the rest, however, a class-B is an establishment that sells for consumption on premises. So.... Chilis, Applebees, a real bar, all are class-b.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Next up on Oprah, trap clubs that serve beer with video of shooters carrying shotguns out to the line!!!
    Last edited by Trip20; 01-19-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I thought we had talked about this before.



    This was NOT changed by Act 35. So... I can drink while armed as long as I have permission of the 'owner or manager of the premises' as long as I don't also fall under 941.237(3)(cx).

    Please tell me why I am wrong?
    You were issued a CCL, that is how you fall under 941.237(3)(cx).

    941.237(3)(g) is not an exception to 941.237(3)(cx) and does not give a licensee permission to drink.

    An owner or manager of an establishment for which a Class B license has been issued, cannot exempt you from 941.237(3)(cx) and give you persmission to consume alcohol, if you are armed.

    941.237(2)(g) gives an exception to 941.237(2) for possesion of a firearm, not consumption of alcohol while in possesion of a firearm, while on the premises for which a Class B license has been issued.

    You may have been able to stretch 941.237(3)(g) and convince owner to give you permission to open carry and consume alcohol on the premises for which a Class B license has been issued and a really good lawyer might be have been able to convince a jury it was legal. But after 941.237(3)(cx) was created with Act 35, it is clearly not legal now, even though you may still get away with it.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 01-19-2012 at 09:38 PM.

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