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Thread: Do this now to support oc in missouri

  1. #1
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Do this now to support oc in missouri

    I've seen many questions - what do we do now, what do we say? Here is the first idea, please be part of the solution to OC in Missouri.
    There will be more people to contact, this is the start with the bill in the senate!

    There will be a house bill in th near future!

    There has been a group of OC supporters working very hard over the past few months with both Missouri House and Senate members to “fix” the open carry issue in Missouri. Now is the time for “ACTION”. All the talk on discussion forums is one thing, if you truly want your rights back it’s time to go to work to get them back!
    Please write, call and email the following.

    Contact “YOUR” Elected member of the Missouri Senate. To find out who this is follow the link: http://www.senate.mo.gov/llookup/leg_lookup.aspx
    The “Bill” presently is known as;

    Senate Bill #680

    You can track Senate “Bills” here: http://www.senate.mo.gov/

    Please contact your elected Senator and politely ask them to support the Senate Bill. Remember please refer to the Senate Bill by number to your “Senator”.
    Example: (BE CREATIVE, AD SOMETHING ELSE)
    Senator John/Mary Doe
    Missouri State Capitol
    201 W. Capitol Ave
    Room xyz
    Jefferson City, MO. 65101

    Dear Senator John or Mary Doe
    There is presently Senate Bill number 680 before the Missouri Senate which I hope you will support. Our second amendment rights as described by the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution and Article 1, Section 23 of the Missouri Constitution are part of the basic foundations of America and our freedoms here in Missouri. Please support this Bill and encourage the leadership in the House/Senate to move this Bill through committee and towards the desk of the Governor.
    Open carry is and has been legal in over 95% of the State of Missouri. Some local laws infringe on this right. SB 680 is the right bill to move through the legislature and send to the Governor’s desk so we can regain our rights here in Missouri.

    As a concerned citizen living in your district I appreciate the service you provide to me and the people of Missouri.

    Thank you, sincerely
    (YOUR NAME GOES HERE)
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    If you live in Missouri and care about your rights, do this now.

    EDIT: Shared this on facebook in order to spread it to all the people on there that are "friends" in the hopes that at least one person will contact their senator/represenative.
    Last edited by Verd; 01-20-2012 at 02:15 AM.
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
    Find businesses that are pro gun and those that aren't. Support Friend or Foe by using it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verd View Post
    Shared this on facebook
    I was actually thinking about putting together a Facebook page for this as well. Although since I run a business I'm not sure I'd want to be incredibly visible on the page (Libs have to buy stuff too).

    Thoughts anyone?

  4. #4
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A 'liberals' detector is easy to make out of simple items that can be found around any home or business.

    Ingredients:
    1. One standard sheet of copy paper.
    2. A standard wide tipped felt marker, black, blue or blue black.
    3. A dispenser of adhesive tape of your choice.

    Steps:
    1. Use marker to write "THIS BUSINESS FULLY SUPPORTS YOUR 2nd AMENDMENT RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE AND THE DEFENSE OF YOUR LOVED ONES."
    2. Use adhesive tape to affix the copy paper 'sign' to the front door of your business.
    3. Observe results.

    This declaration is like garlic and the holy cross to a vampire, a loony lib will not cross your threshold.

    Then again, loony lib money looks just like right-thinking people's money.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A 'liberals' detector is easy to make out of simple items that can be found around any home or business.
    Sadly, this does not work for me. My business is conducted almost exclusively online, and in 1-on-1 meetings with clients, sometimes in their own homes.

    Besides, putting up a sign like that alienates liberal clients just like a "no gun" sign alienates conservative clients. The fact that the libs money is still green and spendable means that a business will generally still want to sell to them as well.

    DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying signs/groups/facebook/whatever is bad, necessarily. Just that there are greater considerations to be taken into account for the average business owner.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Point taken. However, could it be possible that there are far more citizens that agree with the sign, or the principal that it advocates at least, than there are liberals in total? You just have to want to bet your business's success on my contention. Tough call to make to be sure.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  7. #7
    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I was actually thinking about putting together a Facebook page for this as well. Although since I run a business I'm not sure I'd want to be incredibly visible on the page (Libs have to buy stuff too).

    Thoughts anyone?
    I would join.

    If you created the page, you could post as the page itself, not under your actual name. That might help if you want to run it, but would rather be anonymous (which, in your situation, makes sense).

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I was actually thinking about putting together a Facebook page for this as well. Although since I run a business I'm not sure I'd want to be incredibly visible on the page (Libs have to buy stuff too).

    Thoughts anyone?
    If you aren't going to do it within the next day or so, I'll create it!
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
    Find businesses that are pro gun and those that aren't. Support Friend or Foe by using it!

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    Wait a sec. Wasn't the OP the same person who touted "don't let the anti's know what we're up to....don't post about potential bills, they're on the board"? Funny how when it's something coming from YOU it's perfectly fine, but when it comes from elsewhere or someone else suggests getting engaged on a specific issue you simply want them to shut the hell up.

    I'm so sick of the jack-wagons like you that want to play the "super secret squirrel" card so you can do exactly what you've suggested that others do not do. It's crap like that ultimately leading to poorly written legislation, legislational errors in how a law is worded (only to be claimed the language was fine or perfect), and us as taxpayers having to pay out of our pockets to correct or fight against those issues.

    In fact, myself and others throughout the State would greatly appreciate it if those who fall within the aforementioned category stay the hell out of Jefferson City, stay far away from our laws, and leave things well enough alone so we can actually correct the issues that they screwed up on in the first place, most of which had good intentions. Good intentions are the mother of what?

    A few examples:
    HB294 was full of problems all the way through the final copy, which clearly was not read
    Castle Doctrine protection still isn't correct in how parts are worded on where you're supposed to be protected
    Original CCW range standards weren't stand-alone
    New CCW standards were claimed to correct a potential lawsuit issue (which was a lie) and then discovered to be profit motivated, it corrected NOTHING

    The OC correction needed to occur long ago. Why it has been blatantly ignored up to now should raise a lot of questions. What should raise more questions are why the people involved in an upcoming bill on the matter are actually involved as well as how many language errors will be found therein. It won't be a simple repeal with State-wide observance of OC and a punishable attachment for any within the jurisdiction of the State of Missouri to not honor OC.

    Watch it carefully because we should all expect it will have an attachment illustrating that it will have the same restrictions as CCW...or it will eventually wind up that way. I'd also expect that since we don't have a big tradition of passing down firearms education within the family like we had when the Constitution was written that there will likely be a mandatory training requirement as part of some compromise (likely involving STL or KC's influence).
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-22-2012 at 06:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Wait a sec. Wasn't the OP the same person who touted "don't let the anti's know what we're up to....don't post about potential bills, they're on the board"? Funny how when it's something coming from YOU it's perfectly fine, but when it comes from elsewhere or someone else suggests getting engaged on a specific issue you simply want them to shut the hell up.

    I'm so sick of the jack-wagons like you that want to play the "super secret squirrel" card so you can do exactly what you've suggested that others do not do. It's crap like that ultimately leading to poorly written legislation, legislational errors in how a law is worded (only to be claimed the language was fine or perfect), and us as taxpayers having to pay out of our pockets to correct or fight against those issues.

    In fact, myself and others throughout the State would greatly appreciate it if those who fall within the aforementioned category stay the hell out of Jefferson City, stay far away from our laws, and leave things well enough alone so we can actually correct the issues that they screwed up on in the first place, most of which had good intentions. Good intentions are the mother of what?

    A few examples:
    HB294 was full of problems all the way through the final copy, which clearly was not read
    Castle Doctrine protection still isn't correct in how parts are worded on where you're supposed to be protected
    Original CCW range standards weren't stand-alone
    New CCW standards were claimed to correct a potential lawsuit issue (which was a lie) and then discovered to be profit motivated, it corrected NOTHING

    The OC correction needed to occur long ago. Why it has been blatantly ignored up to now should raise a lot of questions. What should raise more questions are why the people involved in an upcoming bill on the matter are actually involved as well as how many language errors will be found therein. It won't be a simple repeal with State-wide observance of OC and a punishable attachment for any within the jurisdiction of the State of Missouri to not honor OC.

    Watch it carefully because we should all expect it will have an attachment illustrating that it will have the same restrictions as CCW...or it will eventually wind up that way. I'd also expect that since we don't have a big tradition of passing down firearms education within the family like we had when the Constitution was written that there will likely be a mandatory training requirement as part of some compromise (likely involving STL or KC's influence).
    C'mon don't hold back tell us how you really feel.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Wait a sec. Wasn't the OP the same person who touted "don't let the anti's know what we're up to....don't post about potential bills, they're on the board"? Funny how when it's something coming from YOU it's perfectly fine, but when it comes from elsewhere or someone else suggests getting engaged on a specific issue you simply want them to shut the hell up.

    I'm so sick of the jack-wagons like you that want to play the "super secret squirrel" card so you can do exactly what you've suggested that others do not do. It's crap like that ultimately leading to poorly written legislation, legislational errors in how a law is worded (only to be claimed the language was fine or perfect), and us as taxpayers having to pay out of our pockets to correct or fight against those issues.

    In fact, myself and others throughout the State would greatly appreciate it if those who fall within the aforementioned category stay the hell out of Jefferson City, stay far away from our laws, and leave things well enough alone so we can actually correct the issues that they screwed up on in the first place, most of which had good intentions. Good intentions are the mother of what?

    A few examples:
    HB294 was full of problems all the way through the final copy, which clearly was not read
    Castle Doctrine protection still isn't correct in how parts are worded on where you're supposed to be protected
    Original CCW range standards weren't stand-alone
    New CCW standards were claimed to correct a potential lawsuit issue (which was a lie) and then discovered to be profit motivated, it corrected NOTHING

    The OC correction needed to occur long ago. Why it has been blatantly ignored up to now should raise a lot of questions. What should raise more questions are why the people involved in an upcoming bill on the matter are actually involved as well as how many language errors will be found therein. It won't be a simple repeal with State-wide observance of OC and a punishable attachment for any within the jurisdiction of the State of Missouri to not honor OC.

    Watch it carefully because we should all expect it will have an attachment illustrating that it will have the same restrictions as CCW...or it will eventually wind up that way. I'd also expect that since we don't have a big tradition of passing down firearms education within the family like we had when the Constitution was written that there will likely be a mandatory training requirement as part of some compromise (likely involving STL or KC's influence).

    Uhhhhh.....I think I'm not sure how you feel.

    Could you please be a little bit more forthcoming?

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  13. #13
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boots Rojas View Post
    Emailed both senators today. What now? :-)
    You only have one State senator.... But all pro letters email are good!

    We wait to see if it is assigned to a committee for a hearing.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  14. #14
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boots Rojas View Post
    Took me 2 X's too get the right district! Lol, oh well 2 is better then 1
    Heck why not.... The most attention is paid to citizens within the district. But it's not against the law. Actually a year or two ago some idiot in the legislature actually had a bill to make that a crime. It didn't go any where of course. I think there are bigger fish to fry!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  15. #15
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Next step

    If you want to see action of OC this is what the next step is:

    Please write or email the speaker of the Missouri House:


    The Honorable Mr. Steve Tilley
    201 West Capitol Avenue
    Room 308A
    Jefferson City MO 65101
    Phone: 573-751-1488
    E-Mail: Steven.Tilley@house.mo.gov

    Dear Mr. Tilley,

    Mr. Fitzwater has introduced HB1369 and it has been read on the House Floor. This bill most certainly has the endorsement of many pro 2nd amendment Representatives like yourself.
    Our second amendment rights and the right for citizens to protect themselves have in the past been compromised by statutes which are in need of revision. Surely the legally armed citizen has every right to carry a firearm without the interference of “local Government” regulating their ability to infringe on their constitutional rights under the second amendment of the Bill of Rights and Art.1 Sec 23 of the Missouri Constitution.
    Please act now to assign BH 1369 to a committee so we the citizens of Missouri may go to Jefferson City and address to the committee our opinions and support for the return of rights which never should have been denied in the first place.

    Sincerely,
    (YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS)
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Emailed my Senator Ryan Mckenna on Friday January 20 about supporting bill SB 680, HE REPLIED AND STATED HE SUPPORTS THIS BILL AND OUR RIGHTS!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Wait a sec. Wasn't the OP the same person who touted "don't let the anti's know what we're up to....don't post about potential bills, they're on the board"? Funny how when it's something coming from YOU it's perfectly fine, but when it comes from elsewhere or someone else suggests getting engaged on a specific issue you simply want them to shut the hell up.

    I'm so sick of the jack-wagons like you that want to play the "super secret squirrel" card so you can do exactly what you've suggested that others do not do. It's crap like that ultimately leading to poorly written legislation, legislational errors in how a law is worded (only to be claimed the language was fine or perfect), and us as taxpayers having to pay out of our pockets to correct or fight against those issues.


    Uhm? WTF. If we did not have random drug testing at work, I would ask for some of what you are smoking!

    Have you even bothered to read the effn bill?

    Here is a =======>clue<======= for you since it is obvious you have NONE, print it out and put it in your pocket!

    SB 680 is EXTREMELY SIMPLE,:
    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections
    571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or which regulates the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243, and incorporates all the justification
    defenses provided under chapter 563.


    The part in Italics is deleted from 21.750 and adds the additional protection of 563 to the discharge of weapons under castle doctrine.

    Now Stoney, just what the heck is it in there that you think gunner has snuck in through "secret squirrel" methods? What exactly is in it for gunner? How about this, I FREAKIN WROTE IT. There is no punishable fine attached to it like there SHOULD be as in Florida's law. What is it you are so scared of with free citizens lobbying their government for change and REDUCED REGULATION AKA GOVERNMENT? Are you scared that if citizens no longer have to seek out permission regulated by the government and qualified by an industry that you spam for, a loss of revenue will occur?

    I know gunner asked folks not to chatter bug publicly about a possible bill, well, guess what, we have a bill and now it is time to make some noise for ALL CITIZENS of MISSOURI, not just special interest groups with a fiduciary interest in the goals!

    Who do you think YOU are to tell another not to lobby and work for change in laws? Who are you to attempt to oppress others? No Stoney, it ain't gonna work that way, not one bit. I have begged those with past history of involvement for help, guidance, wisdom to prevent mistakes and it has been met with ridicule, pathetic criticism, and constant resolve that it is not possible therefore not something to bother trying. Sorry, a bunch of us, and I mean a bunch are no longer satisfied with the status quo and glad handing. Some folks said if you want to talk about it, get off your asses and get to Jeff and testify, guess what, a bunch of us stood up, got together and said, lets go to Jeff.

    You can point and laugh, you can argue against, but you nor any other special interest group is going to change our course, we are going to Jeff, we are going to fight our best fight for ALL Missouri citizens without regard for ANY special interest groups or goals, we seek freedom for all citizens, we seek that freedom without permission or approval, we seek it for those who can not afford classes because we believe that rights are not purchased, nor should they be regulated.

    Don't like it, tough, don't like the methods, tough, don't want to see it, bring it on, and we will see you in Jeff city, its just that simple.

    To others bothering to read along, your rights, your fight, not the ccw trainers of the state, not anyone but you and your participation NOW THAT WE HAVE A BILL is what will make the difference, not me pecking it out, not gunners relentless support of the rights of all citizens, but indeed your support for the bill, the one that supports NO ONE but you and your rights and eliminates one more level of regulation and governmental interference in your life, thank you for your support!

    Rich
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  18. #18
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    If it's OK for me to play in this sand box..... YES I asked (before the bill went public) that talk of pre-emption be left off this forum (PMs, a lot of them!). It's public and we need all the calls, letters, emails and vists we can muster.

    Our numbers here are fairly small but the constitutional rights we have been denied by local governemnt is a big deal!
    Fortunately we have a very strong 2A Majority in the house and senate and pro-2A legislators from both parties. I have no idea what the one "independent" house member thinks.

    Mr. Tilley, the speaker of the Missouri House will assign HB1369 to a committee next week! Trust me on this one...
    We sit and type about B/S on this forum every day, it's time to get our 2A rights back, especially those concerning OC.

    There are a few of us that actually worked our fricken tails off to get us this far, stop the fricken whinning!

    Step by step..... step by step.... step by step!

    Want to work against 2A rights? Join the Brady bunch!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jad316 View Post
    Emailed my Senator Ryan Mckenna on Friday January 20 about supporting bill SB 680, HE REPLIED AND STATED HE SUPPORTS THIS BILL AND OUR RIGHTS!!!!
    awesome news!
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
    Find businesses that are pro gun and those that aren't. Support Friend or Foe by using it!

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    I actually got a PHONE CALL from Vickie Hartzler's office today thanking me for my support and that she supported our 2A rights as well.

    Good news !

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    If it's OK for me to play in this sand box..... YES I asked (before the bill went public) that talk of pre-emption be left off this forum (PMs, a lot of them!). It's public and we need all the calls, letters, emails and vists we can muster.

    Our numbers here are fairly small but the constitutional rights we have been denied by local governemnt is a big deal!
    Fortunately we have a very strong 2A Majority in the house and senate and pro-2A legislators from both parties. I have no idea what the one "independent" house member thinks.

    Mr. Tilley, the speaker of the Missouri House will assign HB1369 to a committee next week! Trust me on this one...
    We sit and type about B/S on this forum every day, it's time to get our 2A rights back, especially those concerning OC.

    There are a few of us that actually worked our fricken tails off to get us this far, stop the fricken whinning!

    Step by step..... step by step.... step by step!

    Want to work against 2A rights? Join the Brady bunch!
    What in the wide wide world of sports is a going on here!?!?!?!

    Missouri we have a pre-emption Bill 1-18-2012 @ 5:25 PM.

    The this thread is started, 1-19-201 @ 4:29 PM, asking that we NOT discuss pre-emption.

    So, which one is it?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like SB680 is 'The bill that shall not be named'. (a little Harry Potter lingo)
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What in the wide wide world of sports is a going on here!?!?!?!

    Missouri we have a pre-emption Bill 1-18-2012 @ 5:25 PM.

    The this thread is started, 1-19-201 @ 4:29 PM, asking that we NOT discuss pre-emption.

    So, which one is it?
    That was before either Bill was released.

  24. #24
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    My point exactly. For some strange reason SB680 (preemption) is now (post HB1369 being filed) a taboo subject.

    I wonder what the good Senator Nieves thinks about all this HB1369 this, don't talk about preemption that?

    What!! Talking about preemption will get both SB680 AND HB1369 killed? With the current make-up of the legislature the only person who is gunna kill this (SB680 or HB1369) is Nixon.....unless of course SB680 is the proverbial bait to the HB1369 switch....

    sneaky spooky dudes......(queue the sinister laugh)
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
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    Or, maybe it's a 'we don't give a rip about preemption or constitutional carry once HB1369 is the law' kind of thing. If you have a permit you can OC and CCW anywhere you wish 21.750.3 used or not. If you have a permit you can OC picking your kid up from school. You will be able to OC anywhere a permits is required to carry. If you have a permit you are set, why rock the boat? If you need a permit you gotta pay to get one.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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