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Thread: Sterling Heights City Council Meeting -- Discussing Charging for a Purchase Permit

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Sterling Heights City Council Meeting -- Discussing Charging for a Purchase Permit

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=161917

    See post #14 and #16.

    Someone is going to the Sterling Heights City Council meeting to discuss their Police Department's policy of forcing you to get your Purchase Permit notarized there.

    Quote Originally Posted by mopedman
    I am heading up to the Sterling Heights City Council on 02-07-2012 to address the same issue in Sterling Heights.
    Quote Originally Posted by mopedman
    Meeting starts at 7:30 PM, 02-07-2012. The address is 40555 Utica Rd, Sterling Heights MI.

    In good old Michigan Open Carry and OCDO tradition, I was thinking a few people may wish to show up as well -- open carrying, if possible!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    if we carpool, im down.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Are they even allowed to do that?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Unhappy Many PD's are getting "creative" to generate funds.

    Sadly I think the economy is pushing this trend along. What we may see in the future is a couple of things. #1 PD's trying to ring every cent they can out of Purchase Permits. If they are not successful, then they will simply: #2 curtail issuing them in an attempt to save man power and money. Taylor, MI is a good example of the latter: the current hours that a resident can get a PP are limited to TUE, WED, THUR. 8AM to NOON. (12hrs per week total???) This makes it very difficult for anyone that works a day job and causes them to lose money to do so. Often an individual may have to make multiple trips over 1 to 2 weeks to apply then pick up the permit. They no longer notarize either so the individual must find a notary too?

    This trend is growing, recently a friend who lives in Wayne MI had to wait two weeks after making three trips to the PD to: (1) apply (2) 8 days later received call saying "come get it", then when on site told sorry it isn't ready yet we made an error and are backlogged with permit requests and our staff has been cut. (3) 4 days later received call to "come get it", again.

    12 days from start to end, why you ask? Budget/staff cuts. Funny one of the 1st things PD's choose to eliminate is the ability for the "common folk" to defend themselves? Not criticizing, just baffled at the logic there?

    Yes - the example above is true and yes it is in violation of the law. However there are no "teeth" in the current MCL's so there is no incentive for compliance.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Are they even allowed to do that?
    no they're not. here's how i handled it when i lived in st clair:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ing-preemption
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Sadly I think the economy is pushing this trend along. What we may see in the future is a couple of things. #1 PD's trying to ring every cent they can out of Purchase Permits. If they are not successful, then they will simply: #2 curtail issuing them in an attempt to save man power and money. Taylor, MI is a good example of the latter: the current hours that a resident can get a PP are limited to TUE, WED, THUR. 8AM to NOON. (12hrs per week total???) This makes it very difficult for anyone that works a day job and causes them to lose money to do so. Often an individual may have to make multiple trips over 1 to 2 weeks to apply then pick up the permit. They no longer notarize either so the individual must find a notary too?

    This trend is growing, recently a friend who lives in Wayne MI had to wait two weeks after making three trips to the PD to: (1) apply (2) 8 days later received call saying "come get it", then when on site told sorry it isn't ready yet we made an error and are backlogged with permit requests and our staff has been cut. (3) 4 days later received call to "come get it", again.

    12 days from start to end, why you ask? Budget/staff cuts. Funny one of the 1st things PD's choose to eliminate is the ability for the "common folk" to defend themselves? Not criticizing, just baffled at the logic there?

    Yes - the example above is true and yes it is in violation of the law. However there are no "teeth" in the current MCL's so there is no incentive for compliance.
    In an odd way I think if enough people had to go through that it would help us get rid of the PP/registration system in the long run.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    In an odd way I think if enough people had to go through that it would help us get rid of the PP/registration system in the long run.

    Bronson
    We just need to start keeping better "case documentation".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Sadly I think the economy is pushing this trend along. What we may see in the future is a couple of things. #1 PD's trying to ring every cent they can out of Purchase Permits. If they are not successful, then they will simply: #2 curtail issuing them in an attempt to save man power and money. Taylor, MI is a good example of the latter: the current hours that a resident can get a PP are limited to TUE, WED, THUR. 8AM to NOON. (12hrs per week total???) This makes it very difficult for anyone that works a day job and causes them to lose money to do so. Often an individual may have to make multiple trips over 1 to 2 weeks to apply then pick up the permit. They no longer notarize either so the individual must find a notary too?
    same at burton pd 16 hours a week
    Handgun purchase permits, registration and permits to carry concealed weapons (CCW) are only available during the following hours:
    Tuesday through Friday
    10:00 AM to 12:00 PM
    2:00 PM to 4:00 PM

    Administrative offices and the Detective Bureau are open Monday through Friday from 9:00 AM until 5:00 PM.


    i thought there was a law that states they have to do PP during all "normal hours of operation" ?


    Edit:its an AG opinion as of 7-17-06 it also says in summery: (there is no local waiting permit allowed. A permit must be issued on your initial visit.) which flint pd is in direct violation as their website states :
    "There is a $5.00 charge at the time of application. You will need a valid picture I.D.There is a 24-hour wait while your record is being checked. In most cases you will be able to pick up your purchase permit the next day. Prior felony arrest disposition checks may take longer. If you have been convicted of a felony or have shown a propensity for violence or assaultive behavior, your permit application may be denied. The fee is not refundable.

    PER STATE STATUTE, WE ARE NO LONGER PERMITTED TO CHARGE THE $5.00 FEE FOR THE PROCESSING OF A PURCHASE PERMIT. WE ARE, HOWEVER, ALLOWED TO CHARGE A $2.00 FEE FOR THE NOTARY SERVICE REQUIRED FOR ALL PURCHASE PERMITS."
    Last edited by RenkaiWulf; 01-22-2012 at 08:05 AM. Reason: redid post

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yeah sure, they CAN charge you a notary fee, but they CAN'T force you to use their notary service. that was the conclusion the city attorney for st clair reached after i called them out on it. they now allow people to go down to the bank or wherever they choose to get it done.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    there is no local waiting permit allowed. A permit must be issued on your initial visit.
    Unless they've changed their ways in the last few years, Meridian Township makes PP applicants wait five days to get their permits. I had to wait probably ten times until I got my CPL. (And even with a CPL I've never had an instant check at a gun shop be approved right away, which sucks if I'm buying from someplace far away like Guns Galore and I have to make return visits).
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Unless they've changed their ways in the last few years, Meridian Township makes PP applicants wait five days to get their permits. I had to wait probably ten times until I got my CPL. (And even with a CPL I've never had an instant check at a gun shop be approved right away, which sucks if I'm buying from someplace far away like Guns Galore and I have to make return visits).
    Would you consider documenting the problem here?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenkaiWulf View Post
    Edit:its an AG opinion as of 7-17-06
    Could you please provide a link to the AGO? I've looked online and can't find that specific opinion. Even in the chronological list of opinions there isn't one listed for 7-17-06.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    They may not still be doing it. It's been years since I've had to get a permit to purchase. But what I was told by Meridian Township Police was that they didn't do their own checks, they forwarded them to the East Lansing PD. It always took me five days to get approved.

    Maybe there is a non-CPL holder in Meridian Township here that can comment on current practices.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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