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Thread: Opinions? Carry while working at a nightclub

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    Regular Member NMadole's Avatar
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    Question Opinions? Carry while working at a nightclub

    One of my side jobs is working as security at a bar/nightclub. At my workplace the security does not carry. One of my good friends works at a nightclub down the street and his security staff all carry (mostly open, but some concealed). This is completely legal (everyone has there CPL and permission for the owner to CC while working and open carry is always legal with your CPL).

    My question is what is your take on bar security staff carrying (and how should they carry)?

    Not sure how I feel....

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Well, I think just about everybody should carry, security guards are no exception. Do you wear uniforms? Are you clearly identified as security? Do you feel comfortable with your whole team carrying? Are you in constant close contact with club patrons? How would you go about training the team? I would support you carrying but there many factors to consider.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Well, I think just about everybody should carry, security guards are no exception. Do you wear uniforms? Are you clearly identified as security? Do you feel comfortable with your whole team carrying? Are you in constant close contact with club patrons? How would you go about training the team? I would support you carrying but there many factors to consider.
    +1
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Given the sue happy country we are in; just some food for thought.

    I would check with the owner about the coverage of his liability insurance underwriters to see if he is covered to have "armed" security staff.
    If he is not; I would suggest you either get bonded yourself or ask him to provide the liability insurance if you're going to be employed as armed security.

    just my .02

  5. #5
    Regular Member NMadole's Avatar
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    We do wear gear that identifies us as bar employees... We have very close and constant contact with bar patrons


    My buddy who carries while working owns a private security firm... the bar contracts his company to provide security so the liability lies with the private security firm...

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    Silly to not carry as a civilian, stupid not to carry as security.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Unarmed Security Guard = Bullet Catcher.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Drunks are the quickest at grabbing for your weapon PERIOD!

    So I always carried concealed to avoid a number of problems.

    1. a drunk grabbing my weapon because he thinks it's funny or a joke.
    2. a drunk grabbing the weapon to be violent.
    3. Drunks seeing you have a weapon and get instant Superman complex and start screaming shoot me and challenge me/you because we ain't so tough garbage.

    I did it for years and when alcohol is involved it's best to not let anyone know you have a weapon till the time it is needed.

    Remember a deterrent like a seen weapon only works on sane people, and drunks typically are insane when drunk.


    Quote Originally Posted by NMadole View Post
    One of my side jobs is working as security at a bar/nightclub. At my workplace the security does not carry. One of my good friends works at a nightclub down the street and his security staff all carry (mostly open, but some concealed). This is completely legal (everyone has there CPL and permission for the owner to CC while working and open carry is always legal with your CPL).

    My question is what is your take on bar security staff carrying (and how should they carry)?

    Not sure how I feel....

  9. #9
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    America has chosen a drunken violent sick society be promoting alcohol instead of a friendly happy and hungry peaceful one through prohibition. That's one of the risks it has taken.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Dalton: All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.

    Dalton: I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice.

    Dalton: If somebody gets in your face and calls you a **********, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal.

    Roadhouse

    Otherwise,


    U.S. Marine Corps Rules:

    1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
    2. Decide to be aggressive enough, quickly enough.
    3. Have a plan.
    4. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
    5. Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a "4."
    7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
    8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral & diagonal preferred.)
    9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
    10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
    11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
    12. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
    13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating your intention to shoot.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Unarmed Security Guard = Bullet Catcher.
    +1

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Check laws regarding armed security.

    Having a personal sidearm while working as a security guard may be considered "Armed Security" which is a whole 'nuther area of security that may require specific legal training and certification. It does in my state. Carrying concealed MAY make a difference in the legal aspects of carrying as a security guard, but my guess is that it probably does not.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member NMadole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Check laws regarding armed security.

    Having a personal sidearm while working as a security guard may be considered "Armed Security" which is a whole 'nuther area of security that may require specific legal training and certification. It does in my state. Carrying concealed MAY make a difference in the legal aspects of carrying as a security guard, but my guess is that it probably does not.
    There are no such laws in Michigan regarding armed security (I also work for Brinks and there is no Michigan "Guard Card")... the only stipulation for concealed carry in a bar is that you are authorized to do so by the owner and that your are acting as an employee providing security for the bar...

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMadole View Post
    There are no such laws in Michigan regarding armed security (I also work for Brinks and there is no Michigan "Guard Card")... the only stipulation for concealed carry in a bar is that you are authorized to do so by the owner and that your are acting as an employee providing security for the bar...
    This is correct...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Security would have to get CPLs to carry concealed though right? I'm assuming that the bar would not be considered their place of business unless they were the owner.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member NMadole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Security would have to get CPLs to carry concealed though right? I'm assuming that the bar would not be considered their place of business unless they were the owner.
    You are correct

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    Security would have to get CPLs to carry concealed though right? I'm assuming that the bar would not be considered their place of business unless they were the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMadole View Post
    You are correct
    I have a friend with out a CPL who cc's at work and is not the owner. So she shouldn't? It is her "place of business".
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 01-26-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    I have a friend with out a CPL who cc's at work and is not the owner. So she shouldn't? It is her "place of business".
    I would argue it is not her "place of business". Just because she works there does not make it hers. I wonder what the "legislative intent" is behind this and if we have any cases regarding this issue.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  19. #19
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    You have to be the owner. Nowhere in MI law, is it OK for a citizen to grant the right to conceal to anyone.

    234d does allow a person to openly carry a firearm in those prohibited places, and 425o allows one to gain permission to carry OC or CC in a church, but only if that person already has a CPL.

  20. #20
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    On another note when I was talking to some people about MI gun laws one mentioned that bouncers at some bar or club carry concealed without CPLs. He said he asked the sheriff in the area whether it was legal and the sheriff told him because they're on private property there is nothing they can do. I'm not saying this is right because the sheriff said so I'm just telling you that is what the sheriff said when asked about it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  21. #21
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    I believe you. The sheriffs are wrong. I doubt intentionally, but wrong nonetheless.

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    That wasn't very nice.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I would argue it is not her "place of business". Just because she works there does not make it hers. I wonder what the "legislative intent" is behind this and if we have any cases regarding this issue.
    Where defendant, charged with carrying a concealed weapon, was arrested while on his job at plant of industrial corporation, and there was no showing that defendant had requisite possessory interest in the place of business to bring defendant within statutory exception allowing the carrying a concealed weapon at one's place of business, conviction of carrying a concealed weapon was affirmed.

    -People V Clark (1970) 21 Mich App 712 NW2d 427.

    possessory interest n the intent and right of a person to occupy and/or exercise control over a particular plot of land. (If her name is on the lease or on the deed, then she has a possessory interest).
    http://goo.gl/t7j4S
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-27-2012 at 09:23 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
    Drunks are the quickest at grabbing for your weapon PERIOD!

    So I always carried concealed to avoid a number of problems.

    1. a drunk grabbing my weapon because he thinks it's funny or a joke.
    2. a drunk grabbing the weapon to be violent.
    3. Drunks seeing you have a weapon and get instant Superman complex and start screaming shoot me and challenge me/you because we ain't so tough garbage.

    I did it for years and when alcohol is involved it's best to not let anyone know you have a weapon till the time it is needed.

    Remember a deterrent like a seen weapon only works on sane people, and drunks typically are insane when drunk.
    +1
    Last edited by DetroitBiker; 04-22-2013 at 02:27 AM.

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