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    New member, have questions...

    Hello, all! I've lurked around in here from time to time, finally decided to register. I just bought my first handgun, a lil' 9 mm Taurus. I have some questions. First off, where is a good place for a lady to get good firearm instruction? Low cost would help, I'm broke after making the purchase, but feel much better that I have it! I do plan on OCing once properly trained. I'm farrrrr west side, so where would be the closest place to...Ft. Apache/Sahara? Thanks so much in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedZilla View Post
    Hello, all! I've lurked around in here from time to time, finally decided to register. I just bought my first handgun, a lil' 9 mm Taurus. I have some questions. First off, where is a good place for a lady to get good firearm instruction? Low cost would help, I'm broke after making the purchase, but feel much better that I have it! I do plan on OCing once properly trained. I'm farrrrr west side, so where would be the closest place to...Ft. Apache/Sahara? Thanks so much in advance.
    I can't help you find a trainer down there in the Sharp End, but these basic rules should be the first thing you learn:

    1) ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded. No Exceptions!

    2) NEVER allow the muzzle to cover anything that you are not willing to DESTROY.

    3) Keep your finger OFF the trigger until your sights are ON THE TARGET.

    4) BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET.

    Repeat these to yourself a few times, until you not only understand them but can't imagine violating them.

    To go into a little more depth:

    1) ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded. No exceptions!
    Some people tell you to TREAT a firearm AS IF it is loaded. The problem is that this is a game -- you are telling yourself something which you know isn't always true -- and you can get into the trap of "knowing" that it is not loaded when it IS. Tragedy often results. The pistol that you carry for defense (your "social" pistol) will be kept loaded except when you are either disassembling it for cleaning, when storing it long-term, or when you have FIRED IT EMPTY.

    2) NEVER allow the muzzle to cover anything that you are not willing to DESTROY.
    That hole in the front end is where death comes out. However, it only goes one direction, straight out and away from the firearm. If you never let it point toward anything that is of value, even the most careless handling (and the negligent discharge which follows) can only be an inconvenience and an embarrassment. There isn't a police station in the country (that has been open more than a decade) without a bullet hole in a wall, ceiling, TV or locker. This is because of the thousands of different times each month that someone is handling a firearm -- they take it for granted that the pistol is empty (Rule 1 violation) and discover that they were wrong. The one saving grace is that they have trained themselves to a high level of "muzzle discipline," so the bullet goes somewhere unimportant.

    3) Keep your finger OFF the trigger until your sights are ON THE TARGET.
    A firearm is designed to fire when the trigger is pressed, and to NOT fire UNTIL it is depressed. A clean, properly adjusted pistol is relatively safe until something goes into the trigger guard (that loop of metal or plastic which creates the "hole" that the trigger is in). Since the only place you want the bullet to go is into your target, the LAST STEP in the draw-fire cycle is to make this possible.

    4) BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET.
    If in ANY doubt, DO NOT FIRE. You don't shoot at a sound in the darkness. You don't shoot if you don't know that the bullet will go somewhere relatively safe if you miss. You don't shoot unless ALL conditions necessary have been met. At the range, this means that you have your target in sight, that the "backstop" area is clear, that no person or pet is ahead of the firing line (that is, ahead of the muzzle of your firearm). In a defense situation, this means that you have LEGAL and MORAL JUSTIFICATION to take the life of another person, and that you can do so without unduly endangering other innocent people. The only justification for using deadly force against another human being, outside of time of war, is when that person is doing something so bad that it must be STOPPED, IMMEDIATELY, even if the person loses his or her life from being stopped. When they are no longer doing that thing (for instance, they surrender or run away when you raise your pistol, or you have shot and disabled them), you are no longer justified in firing.

    Think about these things, especially the last. By buying a firearm and deciding to take responsibility for your own life, you have also taken the responsibility to protect others FROM YOU. If you MUST shoot at another person, don't hesitate. Don't "shoot to wound" or "shoot to kill," you SHOOT TO STOP them.

    Congratulations on becoming an adult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    ) ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded. No exceptions!
    Some people tell you to TREAT a firearm AS IF it is loaded. The problem is that this is a game -- you are telling yourself something which you know isn't always true -- and you can get into the trap of "knowing" that it is not loaded when it IS. Tragedy often results. The pistol that you carry for defense (your "social" pistol) will be kept loaded except when you are either disassembling it for cleaning, when storing it long-term, or when you have FIRED IT EMPTY.
    Nope, attempting to claim "all guns are always loaded" is the 'telling yourself something which you know isn't always true."

    If you TREAT a firearm AS IF it is loaded, you can simply use universal handling precautions EVERY TIME, knowing it is loaded, knowing it is unloaded, OR unknown condition. If you ALWAYS handle it the same, it really is not unsafe to 'know' it is unloaded.

    Treat every firearm AS IF it is loaded, until you have PERSONALLY verified the condition. Do this each time, and you WILL KNOW the condition. Tragedy NEVER results from treating each firearm AS IF it is loaded.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Nope, attempting to claim "all guns are always loaded" is the 'telling yourself something which you know isn't always true."

    If you TREAT a firearm AS IF it is loaded, you can simply use universal handling precautions EVERY TIME, knowing it is loaded, knowing it is unloaded, OR unknown condition. If you ALWAYS handle it the same, it really is not unsafe to 'know' it is unloaded.

    Treat every firearm AS IF it is loaded, until you have PERSONALLY verified the condition. Do this each time, and you WILL KNOW the condition. Tragedy NEVER results from treating each firearm AS IF it is loaded.
    I totally agree. The "every gun is loaded" phrase is cutesy. This is also funny when it carries over to anti-gun people talking about somebody being shot by an unloaded gun, or even unloaded guns are dangerous. True story, I've seen it.



    And another video testing the theory, not @ 2:29 "Treat every gun as if it were loaded"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7kAy6SMdY&NR=1 I do like his comment at the end " I can not be held responsible if you are shot with an unloaded gun."

    We don't need to dumb it down.

    Treat every firearm as if it were loaded and you will NEVER have an issue! Learn your weapon, inside and out. Train and practice with it. It does no good to carry a firearm if you don't know how, and are not prepared, to use it when you have to.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 01-21-2012 at 06:05 PM.

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedZilla View Post
    First off, where is a good place for a lady to get good firearm instruction? Low cost would help, I'm broke after making the purchase, but feel much better that I have it!
    You chose your first pistol well. Your "lil' 9mm Taurus" is very well made, light weight, easily concealed, and has a lifteime warranty. It is priced as a quality entry-level pistol, and will give you years of satisfaction if properly maintained.

    You are fortunate in having several options available to you in Las Vegas. There is MAC702 (hopefully affordable training) locally, and there is Frontsight in nearby Pahrump (purported to be one of, if not THE finest of facilities in the USA), but it's not inexpensive by any stretch of the working persons imagination! However, they do run frequent and reasonable specials on their 2 and 4 day Defensive Handgun Course. When I lived there (20 years ago), at least one of the gun shops (the name of which is lost to me now) in Las Vegas proper used to teach classes also.

    DVC has given you excellent advice, and it's gratifying to know that - as a newbie - you realized the need for some training. Good luck to you, and welcome to the forum! Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 01-21-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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    Welcome to the forum, RedZilla. I think you have already received good advice and rightful confirmation of your choice already in this thread.

    Gil223 - welcome to you as well. I noticed you're also new and I have liked your posts.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC-moto450r
    ...A member, MAC702 provides training and he is local in LV. You can PM him to findout more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    ...You are fortunate in having several options available to you in Las Vegas. There is MAC702 (hopefully affordable training) locally...
    Thanks for the mention, guys!

    I specialize in private classes, and prefer my range as a member of the Boulder Rifle and Pistol club, which normally puts me in the exact opposite side of town. However, I am very pro-armed-women and give good-to-great deals on a case-by-case basis. I have no problem getting across town, though I remember when that only took 13 minutes.

    The NV/UT CCW courses will qualify you for your CCW permit (the UT one being a popular add-on because it is accepted in more states for those who travel.) While it is a course that leads to CCW qualification, the safety rules and legal rules are universal no matter how you choose to carry. It is the least expensive way to get overall basic training, and by getting your CCW permit, you will have more options in the future, even if you primarily OC.

    Some NRA classes focus purely on the firearm safety and skill (not even referring to it as a weapon.) Others add the Personal Protection skill set at a much greater level of training than the CCW course, including lots of live-fire training, as opposed to just a 30-round qualification. Please feel free to PM or email me your needs and desires and I'll let you know what I can do. I've been extremely booked lately, but expect things to slow down again in a week or two. At least I hope so; I need a vacation!
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-21-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC-moto450r View Post
    I agree with the revised wording but from the quote below, DVC is accurate with his advise.


    Quoted from here

    AND



    Quoted from here
    And I firmly disagree with that homily. I do NOT agree that 'every gun is loaded' is akin to 'good advice.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    And I firmly disagree with that homily. I do NOT agree that 'every gun is loaded' is akin to 'good advice.
    Jeff Cooper's greatness lay in his modern perspective. He looked at the history and tried to improve on it. I think that if he were here today, he would be swayed by the argument of "treat as if loaded" v "every gun is loaded".

    I am always mildly amused when people insist on historic purity when discussing the concepts of someone who's greatness was based on innovation. Great innovators would want their concepts to continue to evolve, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    And I firmly disagree with that homily. I do NOT agree that 'every gun is loaded' is akin to 'good advice.
    Same here. I don't lie to my kids nor do I lie to myself. Treat any and every gun as though it is loaded (because if you can honestly tell yourself, after clearing the chamber, dropping the mag, and looking down the barrel from the chamber's side, and STILL say that the gun is loaded... well, then, I have a bridge I'd like to sell ya, as well as a number of myths).
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    Hello from a fellow newbie to this forum. I've been carrying concealed legally for 4+ years and hope to eclipse the psycological block of OC shortly. Based on my limited non-professional experience, I can tell you that you would be far better off getting personalized training as opposed to group training. As far as a place close to you for practice, I would suggest the indoor range at American Shooters. They are located at the corner of Spring Mountain and Arville and offer free range time for women on Wednesdays.

    Good luck and good shooting.
    tr

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:07 PM.

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    amazing, truly amazing...

    this wandering soul is amazed...

    out of the 14 response posts...only two answered the OPs query and the one individual who could meet OPs specific needs responded quite helpfully...

    the other 11 poffered extreme amounts of 'advice' and then argued over the correctness of said advice...lovely!!

    wabbit

    PS wonder what the response would be for the meaning of life? (trick question actually)
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 01-22-2012 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    PS wonder what the response would be for the meaning of life? (trick question actually)
    That is an easy one! I would refer the questioner to Monte Python's film on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Jeff Cooper's greatness lay in his modern perspective. He looked at the history and tried to improve on it. I think that if he were here today, he would be swayed by the argument of "treat as if loaded" v "every gun is loaded".
    During his greeting to every class that I ever observed at Gunsite, one of the first things that he did was cover the Four Rules. Quoting directly, he said that "We don't 'treat' guns as loaded here. They ARE loaded, ALWAYS." He would generally add something like "If you get the mindset of treating firearms as being loaded, that this is just a tradition, you will get sloppy. If aware that the danger is always present, you will act accordingly."

    Since he spent nearly his entire adult life carrying guns, training people to carry them safely and use them properly, was the first to develop this into a science, and as yet nobody has come close to matching his level of experience (the experts teach Cooper's methods, with minor differences), I'm going to accept his pronouncements as being the "true gospel." Since he was a personal friend of mine, perhaps my view is colored, but until someone can show me something better than any particular Cooper doctrine I see no point in arguing with what he taught.

    That is what I posted, directly from the signs at Gunsite, then added remarks and illumination which came directly from the Colonel.

    Most of us know someone who has ND'd while mishandling a firearm. Thinking of the incidents which you personally have seen or know the person involved, how many of them were with a firearm that the handler knew to be loaded, as opposed to one which they thought was NOT -- and was handled by someone who had been trained to TREAT all guns AS IF they are loaded? I can pretty much guarantee that an ND by an experienced gunhandler which results in injury to another person is with an "empty" gun -- or he wouldn't have been pointing the muzzle at the victim.

    There's a reason that "I didn't know it was loaded!" has become a universal joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    this wandering soul is amazed...

    out of the 14 response posts...only two answered the OPs query and the one individual who could meet OPs specific needs responded quite helpfully...

    the other 11 poffered extreme amounts of 'advice' and then argued over the correctness of said advice...lovely!!
    Don't sweat it. Wrightme is spring-loaded to argue with anything that I say.

    I consider this a Good Thing, because he means well, and as we argue back and forth, readers may THINK FOR THEMSELVES and learn from the best parts of each argument. I have seen indications that he is a follower of Ayoob, while I consider Colonel Cooper to be the greater source of doctrine, so each of us thinks that we're more right than the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Don't sweat it. Wrightme is spring-loaded to argue with anything that I say.
    Then it is simply amazing that I didn't argue against each point.


    I am not 'spring-loaded to argue with anything that you say.' I am 'spring-loaded to argue against statements that I do not agree with.'

    Quote Originally Posted by DVC
    I consider this a Good Thing, because he means well, and as we argue back and forth, readers may THINK FOR THEMSELVES and learn from the best parts of each argument. I have seen indications that he is a follower of Ayoob, while I consider Colonel Cooper to be the greater source of doctrine, so each of us thinks that we're more right than the other.
    As for 'follow' anyone? No. I am not a 'follower of Ayoob,' any more than I am a detractor from others. I think for myself. I don't think one way or the other based upon who is in alignment with my view, or in opposition to your view.


    I do NOT believe it is proper to call unloaded firearms 'loaded.' I DO believe it is proper to 'treat ALL firearms as if they ARE loaded.' THat does not lead to 'sloppy handling,' as long as the mindset is never relaxed. For instance, when handling firearms with my son, I show him that it is unloaded before handing it to him. He verifies it after he receives it from my hand. We do this each time. Yet we STILL 'treat it as if it IS loaded.' It would be simply stupid to show it as unloaded, then call it 'loaded.' It is SAFE to still treat it AS IF it was loaded.



    In fact, I will actually take it one step further. If you encounter ANYONE who is so sloppy in handling that you have to tell them 'ALL FIREARMS ARE LOADED,' take it from them, don't let them EVER handle them around you, and get away.



    DVC, that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the fact that you are the one who introduced that specific into discussion. It ONLY is about my disagreement with the specific.
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-22-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    "Treat every gun as if loaded" vs "Consider every gun to be loaded"... TOMATO - TOMAHTO! (It sounds like we are all basically in agreement that the key here is "never just assume a firearm is NOT loaded)". Damn few of us would just assume that there were no rattlesnakes under that desert rock before sticking our hand under it, would we? Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    ...PS wonder what the response would be for the meaning of life? (trick question actually)
    "42" of course. Who'd argue that?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Since he was a personal friend of mine, perhaps my view is colored, but until someone can show me something better than any particular Cooper doctrine I see no point in arguing with what he taught.
    I stand corrected on my expectation regarding Mr. Cooper.

    I certainly understand why an instructor would take the "is loaded" route as it plays to the lowest common denominator and removes any thought process. It is essentially a zero tolerance position by today's terminology. However, I agree with Wrightme as far as "treat" v "is". My agreement comes from my background in psychology rather than firearms.

    We know from research that teaching people absolutes that they later find are untrue or actually nuanced leads to a host of problems. For example, teach kids blah, blah, blah about drugs while they are pretty young and absolutes are functional as they don't have the mental development to understand nuance and it works while they are still young. However, if you don't go back when they are more mentally developed and explain the nuances when they figure out that one thing you told them was BS, they figure everything you told them was BS. This is the psychological reason D.A.R.E has essentially zero residual effects post 8th grade. Psychologically, the failure makes sense. There are numerous exaamples of this phenomena just within US public education.

    In the same vein I would be concerned that teaching IS loaded instead of TREAT as loaded would eventually, as the person is more experienced lead to a similar mental state that dismisses not only the obviously false rule, but to be by extension overly casual about the rest of the rules. All that being said, it is far more likely to be an issue with teaching youth than adults. Most adults will see it as splitting hairs as already mentioned in this thread. I was always taught "treat" including in professionally taught classes and phrase it that way myself. Obviously from the above Gunsight teaches "is" and is certainly a premier traning facility. Everything evolves and not everyone agrees on the direction or pace.

    Anyway, I think I have beaten this dead horse enough. Turned into an interesting introduction thread. I've learned a ffew things.

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    My personal preferences are as follows:

    1) Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.

    2) Only point a firearm at something you are willing to have big hole placed in.

    3) Only place your finger upon the trigger if the firearm is pointed at something that you DESIRE to have a big hole in.


    I like these because they are clear, and unambiguous.
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-22-2012 at 07:42 PM.
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    congradulations mac702...well read forum member...

    deepdiver, what pedagogy research do you refer to?

    wabbit

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