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Thread: Our Walgreens got robbed

  1. #1
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Our Walgreens got robbed

    Apparently only shortly before I arrived.

    Last night the fiancee and I went out to Wal-Mart in Elizabethton to buy some groceries. After spending a third of my paycheck on that, we stopped by Taco Bell to get some cheesy fiesta potatoes (one of our favorite late night snacks). Before heading home we made a stop at Walgreens. The fiancee went in to get what she needed and I stayed and finished eating my potatoes.

    Parked out front of the Walgreens was an Elizabethton PD Impala sitting right in front of the entrance-not in a parking spot, lights off. Another cruiser was leaving just as we pulled in. My first thought was, did they got robbed?

    Sure enough, when my fiancee returned she confirmed that she overheard them talking about a guy with a knife that looked high. Had to have been a meth addict. Who robs a place with a knife? While high? Plus I've been told that East TN has the highest per capita meth usage in the whole country. I can't back that up, it's just what I've been told. And judging by what I see in the news every day, the population of Elizabethton (14,000), and the income level here (20% under the poverty line, median income 20-26k, depending your your gender), I don't doubt that figure at all.

    AFAIK, nobody was hurt. It didn't make the news, so I still believe that. My guess is the guy ran out with an arm full of pseudoephedrine and maybe some cash.

    It was a sobering reminder of how different my night could have been if we'd arrived just 30 or 45 minutes earlier. If it weren't for the fact that a police car was sitting directly in front of the entrance, I would have gone in with her. And if the incident in question happened while I was there...well, I'd have to take action. Reluctantly though, as I know how pathetic meth addicts are. The drug destroys the user's body, mind and life (it's a wonder most of them aren't homeless). But I also know that they'll do just about anything to get their next fix, which includes using that knife.

    You can't help but ask yourself what you'd do in that situation, which is what I did most of last night. While I wouldn't gun down someone holding a knife-especially in this case as their quarrel is not with me, I would definitely draw down on him. Who's to say the pharmacy isn't enough and he starts turning the knife on me or other patrons? But if my drawn weapon isn't enough to persuade him, the moment he does come at me with the knife, I'm ready to put one center mass and see how pursuasive that is.

    Like I said, it's a sobering thought when it happens so close to you. But I like to think I have the mindset to do what is right if the time comes.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    You can't help but ask yourself what you'd do in that situation, which is what I did most of last night. While I wouldn't gun down someone holding a knife-especially in this case as their quarrel is not with me, I would definitely draw down on him.
    Most people haven't a clue as to how deadly a knife can be. Even in novice hands, a single thrust can easily kill a person. Distance isn't much defense, either, given the 21'=1 sec rule.

    But if my drawn weapon isn't enough to persuade him, the moment he does come at me with the knife, I'm ready to put one center mass and see how pursuasive that is.
    Whether I draw on someone depends on a lot of factors, but the few key ones include what they're holding, what they're threatening, and the way they're behaving.

    Once I draw, I'm past the point of backing down without a seriously good reason. I'd rather proceed to detain/subdue, or defend as required.

    Like I said, it's a sobering thought when it happens so close to you. But I like to think I have the mindset to do what is right if the time comes.
    Yes, it is sobering, but yes, I think you're thinking cap is on straight.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Most people haven't a clue as to how deadly a knife can be. Even in novice hands, a single thrust can easily kill a person. Distance isn't much defense, either, given the 21'=1 sec rule.



    Whether I draw on someone depends on a lot of factors, but the few key ones include what they're holding, what they're threatening, and the way they're behaving.

    Once I draw, I'm past the point of backing down without a seriously good reason. I'd rather proceed to detain/subdue, or defend as required.



    Yes, it is sobering, but yes, I think you're thinking cap is on straight.
    That 21' rule, that came from a self defense court case right? Where the attorney made the case that even an average man can cover the distance of 20 feet or so and not give somone enough time to react, thus creating immenent danger to life and limb?

    For the life of me I can't google it though :what:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    That 21' rule, that came from a self defense court case right? Where the attorney made the case that even an average man can cover the distance of 20 feet or so and not give somone enough time to react, thus creating immenent danger to life and limb?

    For the life of me I can't google it though :what:

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    I have understood this as the "Tueller Drill".... where an assailant with a knife at a distance of 21 feet has about a 50% chance of successfully stabbing the trained LEO before the Leo is able to recognize the threat, draw, aim, and fire the service weapon.

    I belive "Tueller" was a Salt Lake City, Utah officer and this was published in a LEO oriented magazine in the 70's.

    Here is a Wikipedia link....http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...tPB72g&cad=rja

    I did a google search using the search term of "Teuller drill".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    That 21' rule, that came from a self defense court case right? Where the attorney made the case that even an average man can cover the distance of 20 feet or so and not give somone enough time to react, thus creating immenent danger to life and limb?

    For the life of me I can't google it though :what:

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    Google "Tueller Drill"


    The short story is something along these lines: Back in the 1970's-80's, some Utah deputies got to wondering how far away a guy with a knife had to be in order to be able to draw your gun in time to stop him. They did some testing. The upshot: the bad guy can cover 21' in 1 1/2 seconds or some such amazingly short time from a standing start.

    This developed into a timed drill to demonstrate. Its called the Tueller Drill. I'm pretty sure one of the Utah deputies was/is named Dennis Tueller.

    Very Important Note: If the average bad guy can cover 21' in the time it takes you to draw and fire twice, it basically means he's knifed you at the same time you've shot him. Twenty-one feet is the drill--not the safe distance!

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    Last edited by Citizen; 01-22-2012 at 11:33 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    ....

    It was a sobering reminder of how different my night could have been if we'd arrived just 30 or 45 minutes earlier. If it weren't for the fact that a police car was sitting directly in front of the entrance, I would have gone in with her. And if the incident in question happened while I was there...well, I'd have to take action.

    ....
    Because thinking about stuff after the fact is so easy - If a cop car is parked any way but properly in a marked spot it suggests that they are there on business, and that the business is not yet concluded. Neither you nor your fiancee had any way of knowing if whoever/whatever the cops were there for was still going on. That a second cruiser was leaving as you arrived may or may not mean the scene is secure.

    Situational awareness counts for a lot. So does gaining bonus points by going in with your fiancee while announcing to her that while you hate the prospect of shopping for whatever it was she needed (insert guy cringe whille making mental list of "women stuff" it could have been) you were going with to make sure she was safe.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    I would like to think that if the police had any reason to believe that the scene wasn't secure that they'd have their lights on on the car.

    Also, I forgot to mention that when we first arrived the doors were locked and a sign said they were temporarily closed (it's a 24 hour walgreens). I would also like to think that en employee unlocking the door is a good sign that the scene is secure.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Thank you for the additional information.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  9. #9
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    commenting on when to draw, and when not to:

    In over 40 years I have never had to make the decision, but my personal thought is...If it comes out, it WILL go bang. I do not believe in threats. Know one guy here in WA that took out his pistol and said "drop it or I'll shoot", Well, he got shot up pretty bad by the bad guy. Yes, the BG is in jail, but Dan was in hospital for months and he is still not well. (Tacoma Mall shooting 2005...Dan hesitated to shoot a "kid')

    I do not handle, or check my sidearm (except with my elbow) and I can see not much good in taking it out of the holster if I do not need to either clean it, or use it. As others have said, do not underestimate a knife.
    Last edited by hermannr; 01-24-2012 at 01:18 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    What about 22'? Is that a different rule?

    A person trained, even moderately so, in close quarters knife combat could possibly stick you. The likely hood of a knife attack by your average thug, completely sober, being effective is low. I am not stating that it is impossible, just that it is unlikely to be effective. This presumes that you just stand there and let the thug give it to you instead of you taking a tactical back step or three to give yourself more time to engage with a sidearm.

    'Bringing a knife to a gun fight' still applies. The thug sees you starting your draw, he will now realize that 21' is a very, very long way to travel to stick you. Any hesitation in his attack is more time for you to engage.

    If he is within arms reach to begin with....disregard.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If you do not practice shooting from the retention position, from 25' to target, then you are giving the thug his 21'.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Jezz around here they rob the stores with a note. Had another one in the news tonight. Handed pharmacist a note demanding drugs. Sad thing is they give it to them.

    Wife and I always practice shooting at 21' or so.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Because thinking about stuff after the fact is so easy - If a cop car is parked any way but properly in a marked spot it suggests that they are there on business, and that the business is not yet concluded. Neither you nor your fiancee had any way of knowing if whoever/whatever the cops were there for was still going on. That a second cruiser was leaving as you arrived may or may not mean the scene is secure.

    Situational awareness counts for a lot. So does gaining bonus points by going in with your fiancee while announcing to her that while you hate the prospect of shopping for whatever it was she needed (insert guy cringe whille making mental list of "women stuff" it could have been) you were going with to make sure she was safe.

    stay safe.
    The police always park that way around here. Unless they have their lights are on, it's not really an indication of anything other than the driver is in a hurry.

    But then again, as I've stated numerous times. The police officers here are fairly corrupt. Things might be different everywhere else.

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    I would like to think that if the police had any reason to believe that the scene wasn't secure that they'd have their lights on on the car.

    Also, I forgot to mention that when we first arrived the doors were locked and a sign said they were temporarily closed (it's a 24 hour walgreens). I would also like to think that en employee unlocking the door is a good sign that the scene is secure.
    Thank you for the adhockery (quod vide).
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-25-2012 at 08:20 AM.

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