Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 100

Thread: Identification required

  1. #1
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301

    Identification required

    First off, let me say sorry beforehand if this is a repeat post (I'm sure it is), but I was unable to find one using the search tool (let's face it, it could use some improvements).

    What are the MO laws concerning providing identification, weather it be just telling them your name, or showing ID? If I recall correctly (not sure where I read/heard it), but I believe you're only required to orally tell them your name and state of residence, nothing more. If operating a vehicle, then the ID is needed. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's happened once or twice before) and also please cite relevant laws. Thanks!!!

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Florissant, Mo
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    First off, let me say sorry beforehand if this is a repeat post (I'm sure it is), but I was unable to find one using the search tool (let's face it, it could use some improvements).

    What are the MO laws concerning providing identification, weather it be just telling them your name, or showing ID? If I recall correctly (not sure where I read/heard it), but I believe you're only required to orally tell them your name and state of residence, nothing more. If operating a vehicle, then the ID is needed. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's happened once or twice before) and also please cite relevant laws. Thanks!!!
    from my understanding... you basically provide whatever the cop request for. If you cannot provide ID etc GOD help you... hope you know your social securitynumber by heart. If you can't prove your ID, and normally assume that you are up to no good and if you are driving with no ID... they'll take you in to see who you are.

    Every place is different... from what I heard, in O.K., you have to inform the cop you have a coneceal weapon. If you don't... they will charge you a fine for not informing them of the weapon. But trust me... if you a a current CCW, THEY WILL KNOW.

    I guess the rule of thumb is, if you provide all the ID and show that you are not hiding anything... your time with them will be short.

  3. #3
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West St. Louis County (Ellisville)
    Posts
    301
    So is that a law that I have to show them whatever they ask for, even if I'm not being detained? That seems eerily similar to Germany back in the day.

    I do agree that sometimes it might just be easier to give it to them, but I want to know the law in order to educate, so that perhaps in the future, they don't just go around demanding papers.
    Last edited by HighFlyingA380; 01-22-2012 at 04:51 AM. Reason: Spelling error

  4. #4
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    437
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    So is that a law that I have to show them whatever they ask for, even if I'm not being detained? That seems eerily similar to Germany back in the day.

    I do agree that sometimes it might just be easier to give it to them, but I want to know the law in order to educate, so that perhaps in the future, they don't just go around demanding papers.
    Missouri:
    Shall Issue - yes
    Must Inform Officer: NO

    Cite: www.handgunlaw.us

    IF you are driving, then you should show your license and a picture ID, usually. If you are on foot it's a different story and might be somewhat complicated. If you are standing in front of a church vs standing on a corner known for drug activity (vague, basic idea, here).

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Missouri does not really have a stop and identify law... as usual, it gets fuzzy/ Seems in KC and St Louis cities proper there is a statute written to indicate they do, but it applies no where else.

    That said, that does not mean you can just spend your days carefree without ID, it depends upon what you are doing. If you are partaking in a LICENSED activity, then you need to have that license card with you aka driving or carrying concealed or open carrying where a permit is required.

    Opinions vary a lot on the subject as to whether one should carry the id with them, and no, under no circumstances should you ever take the advice "you basically provide whatever the cop request for" as it is a real good way to get yourself into a lot of trouble.

    My train of thought is simple. About 99% of the folks carry id and provide it immediately upon request, they do it at such a high level it seems that a large portion of police officers think it is indeed required. if you choose not to show it, you have two things going through the officers mind, you have warrants or your not telling the truth. Both put them on edge. Asking them why they want it is a better response than just refusing it, it fosters conversation that can still remain polite.It is also a moment in time you need to draw the line in the sand and ask if you are being detained. If you are being detained and you do not shut your mouth immediately and refuse to answer any and all questions from that point, you are going against the advice of virtually every lawyer you will come across.

    Check out flex your rights org, lots of good info there.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  6. #6
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Missouri does not really have a stop and identify law... as usual, it gets fuzzy/ Seems in KC and St Louis cities proper there is a statute written to indicate they do, but it applies no where else.

    That said, that does not mean you can just spend your days carefree without ID, it depends upon what you are doing. If you are partaking in a LICENSED activity, then you need to have that license card with you aka driving or carrying concealed or open carrying where a permit is required.

    Opinions vary a lot on the subject as to whether one should carry the id with them, and no, under no circumstances should you ever take the advice "you basically provide whatever the cop request for" as it is a real good way to get yourself into a lot of trouble.

    My train of thought is simple. About 99% of the folks carry id and provide it immediately upon request, they do it at such a high level it seems that a large portion of police officers think it is indeed required. if you choose not to show it, you have two things going through the officers mind, you have warrants or your not telling the truth. Both put them on edge. Asking them why they want it is a better response than just refusing it, it fosters conversation that can still remain polite.It is also a moment in time you need to draw the line in the sand and ask if you are being detained. If you are being detained and you do not shut your mouth immediately and refuse to answer any and all questions from that point, you are going against the advice of virtually every lawyer you will come across.

    Check out flex your rights org, lots of good info there.
    There are also soem very good points if you go to "wisconsin" on this forum.
    Educate yourself, your mouth can be your worst witness.
    Education! see the below picture:
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Is there ANY paragraph in the Missouri code that requires you to carry identification?
    How can you be required to produce what you're not required to have?


    Now, licenses are a different story, as you are generally required to be in possession of a license when performing a licensed activity, but walking down the street and breathing isn't a licensed activity.

    Missouri Revised Statutes, Section 84.710
    1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.

    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest. 3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.


    MO is Not a 'stop and identify' state, officers must have RAS before seizing a citizen. Note that the statute says 'demand his issued identification', according to the wording of the code, stating one's true name, address and business is sufficient.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-22-2012 at 10:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    RSMo 84.710 - Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City

    The above statute is only enforceable in Kansas City, MO, and St Louis City.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fallon, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    5,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    from my understanding... you basically provide whatever the cop request for. If you cannot provide ID etc GOD help you... hope you know your social securitynumber by heart. If you can't prove your ID, and normally assume that you are up to no good and if you are driving with no ID... they'll take you in to see who you are.
    FUD alert.
    Social security number? WHY? Under what statute are you required to present that number to law enforcement, ever?
    If you are driving, that is a state-licensed activity, which is much different than walking down the street to a store, which isn't a licensed activity. If you seriously think you are required to provide your identity to cops, 'provide whatever the cop request for,' you are part of the problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314
    Every place is different... from what I heard, in O.K., you have to inform the cop you have a coneceal weapon. If you don't... they will charge you a fine for not informing them of the weapon. But trust me... if you a a current CCW, THEY WILL KNOW.
    In that case, the statute WILL state the requirement. If it does not require identifying yourself for OC, then it isn't relevant here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314
    I guess the rule of thumb is, if you provide all the ID and show that you are not hiding anything... your time with them will be short.
    Maybe. And, the cop learns he can make unlawful demands and expect them to be submitted to.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  10. #10
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Saint Joseph, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    130
    This is precisely what I'm fighting in court right now. I can tell you exactly how SJPD feels about producing physical ID upon demand...
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

  11. #11
    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    St. Joseph MO
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    This is precisely what I'm fighting in court right now. I can tell you exactly how SJPD feels about producing physical ID upon demand...
    Yep, the St. Joseph Gestapo doesn't take kindly to refusing ID.
    Before we know it we will all be wearing different patches on our clothes up here.
    Last edited by G30Mike; 01-22-2012 at 03:12 PM.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    SNIP What are the MO laws concerning providing identification, weather it be just telling them your name, or showing ID? If I recall correctly (not sure where I read/heard it), but I believe you're only required to orally tell them your name and state of residence, nothing more. If operating a vehicle, then the ID is needed. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's happened once or twice before) and also please cite relevant laws. Thanks!!!
    No offense, but the question is too imprecise.

    Fortunately, the posters so far have pretty much touched on all the important aspects anyway.

    Lets summarize.

    1. If stopped while driving, the driver's license is not so much an ID as it is a license, basically a document that proves you are approved to drive.

    2. There is federal law about whether a social security number can be demanded, under what circumstances, and what conditions have to be met before the demand can be made.

    3. Is there a MO statute that compels:

    A. notifying a police officer that one is carrying a gun? Concealed? OC'd?

    B. providing the gun license/permit/etc to the LEO? And, when?

    4. If seized (detained) on foot, or say, while a passenger in a car, is there a:

    A. MO statute that compels providing identity info verbally?

    B. MO statute that compels providing an identity document?

    C. MO court opinion that says a person can be charged with obstruction of a police officer for refusing to provide identity verbally? Refusal to provide an identity document?


    If we get all the answers tightly in one or two posts, then the OPer can copy-and-paste them back to his OP and create a reference thread for MO.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-22-2012 at 03:16 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member xdmcompact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    St Louis City
    Posts
    289
    Missouri removed the requirement to have ID while driving in 2007 I believe. Shortly after municipalities adopted their own requirement to have ID while driving. Not sure if all muni's in MO. have the requirement or not. I believe they removed the words which made it required for you to have an ID on you at all times while driving.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C300-399/3020000020.HTM

    Missouri Revised Statutes
    Chapter 302
    Drivers' and Commercial Drivers' Licenses
    Section 302.020

    August 28, 2011


    Operation of motor vehicle without proper license prohibited, penalty--motorcycles--special license--protective headgear, failure to wear, fine, amount--no points to be assessed.

    302.020. 1. Unless otherwise provided for by law, it shall be unlawful for any person, except those expressly exempted by section 302.080, to:

    (1) Operate any vehicle upon any highway in this state unless the person has a valid license;


    A license is valid whether it is in your possession or not, leaving it at home does not make it invalid. The police can verify whether your license is valid without a physical license on hand.
    Last edited by xdmcompact; 01-22-2012 at 04:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    No offense, but the question is too imprecise.

    Fortunately, the posters so far have pretty much touched on all the important aspects anyway.

    Lets summarize.

    1. If stopped while driving, the driver's license is not so much an ID as it is a license, basically a document that proves you are approved to drive.

    2. There is federal law about whether a social security number can be demanded, under what circumstances, and what conditions have to be met before the demand can be made.

    3. Is there a MO statute that compels:

    A. notifying a police officer that one is carrying a gun? Concealed? OC'd? No, Duty to carry and display endorsement, RSMo 571.121. If OCing, it should be obvious that you are carrying.

    B. providing the gun license/permit/etc to the LEO? And, when? RSMo 571.121 the language could be interpreted one way, but I interpret this statute as a 'notify' ONLY when armed.

    4. If seized (detained) on foot, or say, while a passenger in a car, is there a:

    A. MO statute that compels providing identity info verbally? No, see RSMo 84.710 - Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City

    B. MO statute that compels providing an identity document? No, other than the DL while driving. There is this, RSMo 575.190 Refusal to ID as Witness.. Maybe this, RSMo 575.160 Interference with Legal Process. The ole standby....yeah, whatever, RSMo 574.010 Peace Disturbance. Is there more, probably, but the odds are that no statute exists. If there is, point me to it.

    C. MO court opinion that says a person can be charged with obstruction of a police officer for refusing to provide identity verbally? Refusal to provide an identity document? I'll leave it someone else for case law.


    If we get all the answers tightly in one or two posts, then the OPer can copy-and-paste them back to his OP and create a reference thread for MO.
    My small contribution, by no means to be intended as all inclusive.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    Edit: Should be No. (RSMo title - Duty to....)
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    RSMo 84.710 - Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    The above statute is only enforceable in Kansas City, MO, and St Louis City.
    Thanks for the clarification, I was pretty sure that it only applied to those two cities from the way the code was titled, but I didn't want to make any assumptions.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, I was pretty sure that it only applied to those two cities from the way the code was titled, but I didn't want to make any assumptions.

    I believe that specific statue only applies to K.C.. While the entire chapter of state law is for St. Louis and K.C. ,each section seems to be for one or the other and is denoted for each. That specific section is denoted "Kansas City" so I believe it only applies to K.C.. MO statues can get a bit fuzzy.
    Last edited by SavageOne; 01-22-2012 at 11:41 PM.
    AUDE VIDE TACE

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Florissant, Mo
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Is there ANY paragraph in the Missouri code that requires you to carry identification?
    How can you be required to produce what you're not required to have?


    Now, licenses are a different story, as you are generally required to be in possession of a license when performing a licensed activity, but walking down the street and breathing isn't a licensed activity.

    Missouri Revised Statutes, Section 84.710
    1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.

    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest. 3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.


    MO is Not a 'stop and identify' state, officers must have RAS before seizing a citizen. Note that the statute says 'demand his issued identification', according to the wording of the code, stating one's true name, address and business is sufficient.
    You are right... we are not "REQURIED" to carry ID... but it open up other doors we do not want to go into. If the cop is looking for a certain person with the name of "XXXXX". And you happen to fit that descrption and to clear up anything... they ask for your ID. WIthout an ID... the cop basically have no choice to tell you, you fit the description and they need to find out the truth about you... so now you are spending the next few hours being "run through the system".

    Hey, I don't like showing my ID either... but I don't like sitting in jail either (never did that, but use to work in one). But I guess its "human nature" that people assume... cops will assume that you have an ID and assume if you don't... you have something to hide. Like many people on here... we either know criminals, where/are criminals, have family members as criminals, went to school with them, been friends, etc. There are a lot of them out there looking to disrespect and make cops look like fools. Some sell drugs or/and use drugs, some rob, etc. And they work on ways to evade the cops and some of them... come up with stupid things to say and do. For a really stuipd example... at the barber shop I go to, its ok to OC there. THis other barber there, OC there too.. we all got to talking about how to obtain a CCW, etc. This guy was serious about his answer.... he thought it was ok as long as you had a driver's liscense???!!!! This guy is about 30 years old. Need-less-to say... we had a long conversation.

    My ex-friend... I stop being friends with him once I looked up his record online. I was told he went to jail because of a gun charge and he bought it illegally and used it for self defense. Come to find out (10 years later), that he and one of his friends car jacked someone. So, that was enough for me to say... my safetly, family and my way of life is too improtant to be friends with him.

    Point is... there are a ton of people who have warrents, are not trust worthy, and will hurt you, if the oppertunity present itself. So that basic ID can make the difference in a quick stop or keeping a crime from happening.

    But the choice is always yours.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fallon, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    5,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    You are right... we are not "REQURIED" to carry ID... but it open up other doors we do not want to go into. If the cop is looking for a certain person with the name of "XXXXX". And you happen to fit that descrption and to clear up anything... they ask for your ID. WIthout an ID... the cop basically have no choice to tell you, you fit the description and they need to find out the truth about you... so now you are spending the next few hours being "run through the system".
    Wrong. The cop does have a choice. They don't 'need' to 'find out the truth about you.'
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-23-2012 at 08:16 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    .

    Hey, I don't like showing my ID either... but I don't like sitting in jail either (never did that, but use to work in one).
    Uhm, then DON't. If you think that a cop can detain you on description and refusing id alone, you are mistaken, it takes PC to effect an arrest and custody. There is a huge level of civil risk to the officer for violating your rights, however if you do not know them then you have no way to ever go after it. It is MUCH MUCH easier for an officer to get you to consent than it is for him to develop PC and if he has only RAS he has a VERY limited amount of time he may detain you before he must have PC for an arrest. There is no set in stone number, but generally speaking he has 19 minutes to get it done, after minute 20 goes by, he has some splaining to do Lucy!

    One very real and I mean VERY real reason not to let them see your id and run it, have you read the CCW law... "Frequent contacts with police..." give the sheriff some latitude in refusing your permit. Not that they would ever do that ... how many sheriff's refused to follow the law and issue them..... stl county and jackson county come right to mind and they had to be FORCED to do so... see the point?


    Interesting info on this commig soon, found something interesting.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Florissant, Mo
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    FUD alert.
    Social security number? WHY? Under what statute are you required to present that number to law enforcement, ever?
    If you are driving, that is a state-licensed activity, which is much different than walking down the street to a store, which isn't a licensed activity. If you seriously think you are required to provide your identity to cops, 'provide whatever the cop request for,' you are part of the problem!

    In that case, the statute WILL state the requirement. If it does not require identifying yourself for OC, then it isn't relevant here.


    Maybe. And, the cop learns he can make unlawful demands and expect them to be submitted to.
    You make some good points... How many people know their lisence number? Next thing is your SSN. Yes, its a gray area... in general, you can sit there trying to recite the laws to a "know it all cop", who is encourage to take you in if you do not produce an ID. If you fit the descroption and the easiest thing to do is show your ID so you can be on your way... many of us will just show the ID and its over. Just saying... pick your battles.

    Its easier to follow the directions, file a complant to your local Rep.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Florissant, Mo
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Uhm, then DON't. If you think that a cop can detain you on description and refusing id alone, you are mistaken, it takes PC to effect an arrest and custody. There is a huge level of civil risk to the officer for violating your rights, however if you do not know them then you have no way to ever go after it. It is MUCH MUCH easier for an officer to get you to consent than it is for him to develop PC and if he has only RAS he has a VERY limited amount of time he may detain you before he must have PC for an arrest. There is no set in stone number, but generally speaking he has 19 minutes to get it done, after minute 20 goes by, he has some splaining to do Lucy!

    One very real and I mean VERY real reason not to let them see your id and run it, have you read the CCW law... "Frequent contacts with police..." give the sheriff some latitude in refusing your permit. Not that they would ever do that ... how many sheriff's refused to follow the law and issue them..... stl county and jackson county come right to mind and they had to be FORCED to do so... see the point?


    Interesting info on this commig soon, found something interesting.
    Well... (not to be funny here), isn't that the PC... you fit the description? If you "fit the description" and they have say a first or last name of the perp...and you refuse to show your ID, it thows a "flag" that you are trying to hide something. Its a different story if you say, "I don't have my ID with me". But if you just flat out refuse... something is going to happen. and I'm betting its not going to be the cop is just going to walk away.

    For example (maybe I'm wrong about this)... if you just got robbed, and the woman shot you in the leg and ran off. You give the desricption of a woman, indian decent, about later 20's early 30's, about 6 feet talk and medium build with a blue shirt with "adidas" on it wearing short shorts and black shoes... and they find a woman like that a mile away... chances are they are going to detain her to see if you can see if she is the person. They will ask for her ID and where she was at etc. If she refuse and just let her "walk away"... then we really need to improve our system.
    Last edited by Firedawg314; 01-24-2012 at 03:26 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    Comical pretzel logic....

    How on earth does providing your ID to LE exclude you from being a perp where the only information LE has is a physical description? If you have not violated the law do not take one for the team, do not concede your rights.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fallon, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    5,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    You make some good points... How many people know their lisence number? Next thing is your SSN.
    No, it isn't about any "how many people know it?" It is about "what statute requires providing it?"
    If there isn't statute, don't provide it. It IS that simple, unless you want to continue reinforcing unlawful search and seizure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314
    Yes, its a gray area... in general, you can sit there trying to recite the laws to a "know it all cop", who is encourage to take you in if you do not produce an ID.
    No, it isn't a 'gray area.' It is black and white. If there isn't a statute that says to present ID, how can you recite such statute to cops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314
    If you fit the descroption and the easiest thing to do is show your ID so you can be on your way... many of us will just show the ID and its over. Just saying... pick your battles.
    "Don't fight it, the rape will be over quickly, and you can be on your way."
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314
    Its easier to follow the directions, file a complant to your local Rep.
    If you submit, you have no complaint.



    Just sayin, each person who DOES just 'show the ID and its over' reinforces such in the mind of the LE. Do you not see that each time that happens, it conditions the LE to assume that it is what people NEED to do?
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-24-2012 at 08:25 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    LEOs are conditioned in the academy to expect citizens to comply with their 'request', where no statute exits to compel a citizen to comply with their 'request'. What they are not conditioned for is uppity, knowledgeable citizens who tell them politely to 'go pound sand'.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •