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Identification required

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
FUD alert.
Social security number? WHY? Under what statute are you required to present that number to law enforcement, ever?
If you are driving, that is a state-licensed activity, which is much different than walking down the street to a store, which isn't a licensed activity. If you seriously think you are required to provide your identity to cops, 'provide whatever the cop request for,' you are part of the problem!

In that case, the statute WILL state the requirement. If it does not require identifying yourself for OC, then it isn't relevant here.


Maybe. And, the cop learns he can make unlawful demands and expect them to be submitted to.

You make some good points... How many people know their lisence number? Next thing is your SSN. Yes, its a gray area... in general, you can sit there trying to recite the laws to a "know it all cop", who is encourage to take you in if you do not produce an ID. If you fit the descroption and the easiest thing to do is show your ID so you can be on your way... many of us will just show the ID and its over. Just saying... pick your battles.

Its easier to follow the directions, file a complant to your local Rep.
 

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
Uhm, then DON't. If you think that a cop can detain you on description and refusing id alone, you are mistaken, it takes PC to effect an arrest and custody. There is a huge level of civil risk to the officer for violating your rights, however if you do not know them then you have no way to ever go after it. It is MUCH MUCH easier for an officer to get you to consent than it is for him to develop PC and if he has only RAS he has a VERY limited amount of time he may detain you before he must have PC for an arrest. There is no set in stone number, but generally speaking he has 19 minutes to get it done, after minute 20 goes by, he has some splaining to do Lucy!

One very real and I mean VERY real reason not to let them see your id and run it, have you read the CCW law... "Frequent contacts with police..." give the sheriff some latitude in refusing your permit. Not that they would ever do that ... how many sheriff's refused to follow the law and issue them..... stl county and jackson county come right to mind and they had to be FORCED to do so... see the point?


Interesting info on this commig soon, found something interesting.

Well... (not to be funny here), isn't that the PC... you fit the description? If you "fit the description" and they have say a first or last name of the perp...and you refuse to show your ID, it thows a "flag" that you are trying to hide something. Its a different story if you say, "I don't have my ID with me". But if you just flat out refuse... something is going to happen. and I'm betting its not going to be the cop is just going to walk away.

For example (maybe I'm wrong about this)... if you just got robbed, and the woman shot you in the leg and ran off. You give the desricption of a woman, indian decent, about later 20's early 30's, about 6 feet talk and medium build with a blue shirt with "adidas" on it wearing short shorts and black shoes... and they find a woman like that a mile away... chances are they are going to detain her to see if you can see if she is the person. They will ask for her ID and where she was at etc. If she refuse and just let her "walk away"... then we really need to improve our system.
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Comical pretzel logic....:banghead:

How on earth does providing your ID to LE exclude you from being a perp where the only information LE has is a physical description? If you have not violated the law do not take one for the team, do not concede your rights.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
You make some good points... How many people know their lisence number? Next thing is your SSN.
No, it isn't about any "how many people know it?" It is about "what statute requires providing it?"
If there isn't statute, don't provide it. It IS that simple, unless you want to continue reinforcing unlawful search and seizure.
Firedawg314 said:
Yes, its a gray area... in general, you can sit there trying to recite the laws to a "know it all cop", who is encourage to take you in if you do not produce an ID.
No, it isn't a 'gray area.' It is black and white. If there isn't a statute that says to present ID, how can you recite such statute to cops?

Firedawg314 said:
If you fit the descroption and the easiest thing to do is show your ID so you can be on your way... many of us will just show the ID and its over. Just saying... pick your battles.
"Don't fight it, the rape will be over quickly, and you can be on your way."
Firedawg314 said:
Its easier to follow the directions, file a complant to your local Rep.
If you submit, you have no complaint.



Just sayin, each person who DOES just 'show the ID and its over' reinforces such in the mind of the LE. Do you not see that each time that happens, it conditions the LE to assume that it is what people NEED to do?
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
LEOs are conditioned in the academy to expect citizens to comply with their 'request', where no statute exits to compel a citizen to comply with their 'request'. What they are not conditioned for is uppity, knowledgeable citizens who tell them politely to 'go pound sand'.
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
This topic has been discussed a lot. While not necessarily state specific, you will have to figure that out for yourself in your location. But Here is a link to a list of useful info (also linked below in my Sig FAQ's). About half way down is tidbits on RAS, and a link to a discussion of Id'ing yourself. There is also a link in that thread about different types of detentions and court cases discussing them.
 
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ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
I always have my wallet on me when out and about. It contains both my CWL/CHL and DL. When in contact with police I always disclose my carry status and generally have no issues with providing ID when asked.

That said, if cops "DEMAND" my ID I want to know why. That would generally be dealt with by asking, "Why do you want to see my ID?" If I don't like the answer, then I'll be asking if I am free to go.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
I always have my wallet on me when out and about. It contains both my CWL/CHL and DL. When in contact with police I always disclose my carry status and generally have no issues with providing ID when asked.

That said, if cops "DEMAND" my ID I want to know why. That would generally be dealt with by asking, "Why do you want to see my ID?" If I don't like the answer, then I'll be asking if I am free to go.
They will never need to demand your id; you already gave it freely. WHY provide it when asked, but not when demanded?
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
I for one, never carry ID, I carry a license, but only when performing a licensed activity.

Officer Friendly wants to see my ID? I got no problem with it, but I hope he packed a lunch and is wearing his comfy shoes. I'm gettin' a bit old and can't always remember where I parked the car, or even what car I was driving any particular day. It could literally take hours and Hours.

When I need identification I produce a government issued passport card, the few dollars it costs have been well repaid.
Notice the information that's not on there?
Passport_card.jpg
 
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DWCook

Activist Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
432
Location
Lenexa, Kansas
I am going to have to agree with some people here on this thread. It is easier to show I.D. and your permit then it is to stand there and make the officer think you have something to hide. Pick and choose your battles people, taking out your wallet and showing your I.D's is easier then standing there making the situation worse.
 

xdmcompact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
I am going to have to agree with some people here on this thread. It is easier to show I.D. and your permit then it is to stand there and make the officer think you have something to hide. Pick and choose your battles people, taking out your wallet and showing your I.D's is easier then standing there making the situation worse.

So if a police officer is asking for ID when it is not required you will hand it over just cause he said pretty please? It is either all or nothing you either stand by all your rights or you give all of them up. We can't pick and choose to use only some rights and not others, that's what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. By letting them take away some rights while letting us have other rights, that's not how it should be.
 

ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
They will never need to demand your id; you already gave it freely. WHY provide it when asked, but not when demanded?

Because there are many things I do when ASKED that I don't do when DEMANDED.

There's a reason different words were used at different times.

When an officer approaches me and asks in a polite tone of voice for my ID, I'm more than willing to produce it if I have it. Since I always have it, I do.

OTOH, if an officer screamed at me to "give him some ID!" then we'd be in a far different situation.
 

ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
I am going to have to agree with some people here on this thread. It is easier to show I.D. and your permit then it is to stand there and make the officer think you have something to hide. Pick and choose your battles people, taking out your wallet and showing your I.D's is easier then standing there making the situation worse.

Yeah, I never have much trouble identifying myself when asked in a polite tone of voice. Police encounters have never proven to be a battle for me in the first place.
 

ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
So if a police officer is asking for ID when it is not required you will hand it over just cause he said pretty please? It is either all or nothing you either stand by all your rights or you give all of them up. We can't pick and choose to use only some rights and not others, that's what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. By letting them take away some rights while letting us have other rights, that's not how it should be.

Funny, if a cop said "pretty please" to me I would wonder whether he was on drugs or was under duress. My radar would definitely tweak.

And no, telling somebody my name, even showing them an ID isn't "Giving up my rights".

Yes, I can pick and choose what actions I take when in any situation. It's an exercise of freedom of choice. I can choose to engage as some sort of activist with an agenda in mind or I can respond politely in my own way when treated as such by a LEO.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
Because there are many things I do when ASKED that I don't do when DEMANDED.

There's a reason different words were used at different times.

When an officer approaches me and asks in a polite tone of voice for my ID, I'm more than willing to produce it if I have it. Since I always have it, I do.

OTOH, if an officer screamed at me to "give him some ID!" then we'd be in a far different situation.

Once you have freely given your ID, whether you are willing to present it upon demand has become entirely irrelevant. You already rolled over your rights.
 

LMTD

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
1,919
Location
, ,
Well... (not to be funny here), isn't that the PC... you fit the description? If you "fit the description" and they have say a first or last name of the perp...and you refuse to show your ID, it thows a "flag" that you are trying to hide something. Its a different story if you say, "I don't have my ID with me". But if you just flat out refuse... something is going to happen. and I'm betting its not going to be the cop is just going to walk away.

If I "fit the description" then the officer at that point likely has satisfied RAS and when he asked me for ID and I declined his REQUEST politely stating "I have done nothing illegal and I have no reason to present ID, am I being detained? Am I free to go?" then he is indeed obligated to tell me I am NOT free to go which means I AM being detained. I now am required to tell him my name and I may not lie about it. I sitll have no obligation to present any form of identification to him, though I might as I am officially in detainment and I might want that fairly harmless fact recorded by him seizing it and calling it in.

How about if I walk up and ask you for ID? Why is a cop different if you are not being legally detained?

Sir you are welcome to concede your rights as you see fit, but propagating that others are required to do so because you might think it a positive thing remains inaccurate.

I prefer to assert my rights and resist governmental interference in my life. I will not concede my rights to make a police officers day nicer or his job easier, I simply want him to leave me alone and stay out of my business unless he has sound reason to believe I am violating some law, after all, that is how it is supposed to be and carrying papers to be presented instantly was exactly one of the forms of control Hitler put into place so as to oppress, I simply say no thank you and politely decline.
 

LMTD

Accomplished Advocate
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BTW, a bit of information from a MO prosecutors Handbook of sorts.

Scope of Detention – If Suspect Refuses to Give Name and Address, the Detention may Include
a Search for ID.
State v. Flynn , 92 Wis.2d 427, 285 N.W.2d 710 (1979). A police officer was told to patrol an
area for suspects in a just-completed burglary. Thirty minutes later he saw two men emerge
from an alley – one fit the description of the burglar. The one who fit ID’d himself, but the
other refused to do so, even after the officer explained the reason for the inquiry. The officer
frisked the detainee for a wallet, checked the ID, and found that a “pick-up” order was out for
him. The officer also found pliers and flashlight during the frisk. HELD: In Adams v. Williams
the Court stated that an officer may stop a person [upon reasonable suspicion] “in order to
determine his identity.” To accept defendant’s contention that the officer can stop the suspect
and request ID, but that the suspect can turn right around and refuse to provide it, would reduce
the authority of the officer . . . recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in Adams . . . to identify
a person lawfully stopped by him to a mere fiction. Unless the officer is given some recourse in
the event his request for ID is refused, he will be forced to rely either upon the good will of the
person he suspects or upon his own ability to simply bluff that person into thinking he actually
does have some recourse.” Using the 4th Amendment reasonableness test, the Court balanced
the need for the search against the invasion of personal rights that the search entails. The
intrusion was limited, the scope narrow – and the defendant could have avoided the intrusion by
simply producing the ID himself. Thus, the police action was justified, particularly when you
consider that if the officer lets the suspect go without even identifying him, and it later turns out
he was the perpetrator, locating him will be impossible. LaFave points out that the “right to
remain silent” under the 5th Amendment does not necessarily encompass an unlimited freedom to remain anonymous. LaFave , Volume IV at 304.

NOTE: If a state or municipality wants to make it a crime to refuse to provide identification after
being stopped on reasonable suspicion, it may do so. Such a law allows the officer to arrest
the uncooperative suspect once the suspect refuses to provide any ID. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial
District , 124 U.S. 2451 (2004).
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
If an officer approaches and states I fit a description of a "uvw" that just committed "xyz" and requests ID. I personally wouldn't have a problem being compliant. But when they don't have any reason, or just say they want to check to see if I'm a felon...Nope sorry. I don't play those BS games. Many times if they have a real investigation based on real evidence, they will state it. But when they start making stuff up and lying, that's when there is a problem. But that's just my opinion. Your all free to do as you please. In the end we each will be held accountable for our actions, right or wrong as they may be. So choose as you see fit given the circumstances.
 
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