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Thread: Americans prepares for civilization's collapse | Reuters. Sub-culture? Hah!

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Americans prepares for civilization's collapse | Reuters. Sub-culture? Hah!

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80K0LA20120121
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Forsyth
    Preppers, though are, worried about no government. ...Tegeler, 57, has turned her home in rural Virginia into a "survival center," complete with a large generator, portable heaters, water tanks, and a two-year supply of freeze-dried food that her sister recently gave her as a birthday present. She says that in case of emergency, she could survive indefinitely in her home. And she thinks that emergency could come soon.
    There's an aspect of Tegler's preppies missing. How's she/they going to keep her assets?

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    I noticed that one of the "doomsday" authors quoted in that article was listed as a former "Army intelligence officer". I would remind everyone that "intelligence officer" is not necessarily the same thing as "intelligent officer".

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    It's a OPSEC failure to have your name, all your supplies, and general location, published for anyone to see.

    Good luck with that indefinite survival, Tegler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    There's an aspect of Tegler's preppies missing. How's she/they going to keep her assets?
    This is a logical fallacy. Not mentioning self defense preparations does not imply that said preparations are nonexistent.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    This is a logical fallacy. Not mentioning self defense preparations does not imply that said preparations are nonexistent.
    And considering that Reuters is essentially the "news and information" arm of the International Bankster Cartels (they got their start as a carrier pigeon-based quick-delivery service for the London stock markets), it is entirely possible that she mentioned, it but they edited it out, so as not to let people know that preppers also own guns and believe in the human right of self defense....
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-22-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    2 years is equal to indefinitely now?

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Living in Utah, I know several people who have a 2 year food storage supply in their homes. I have asked each if they have firearms and a 2 year supply of ammo so they can retain their groceries. They all had guns... but only one had what he considered to be sufficient ammo for 2 years. The others - trusting souls that they are - hadn't considered that in desperate times, otherwise honest people may perform desperate acts to provide for their families. A siege is not beyond the realm of possibilities. It is better to be prepared, than to be surprised. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 01-22-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    2 years is equal to indefinitely now?
    After two years most/all of the unprepared will have died off, and the survivors will have adapted to the new conditions.

    Don't need enough food for the rest of your life, just enough to get through the worst of the upheaval until your local community returns to the agrarian roots that built this country.


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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I noticed that one of the "doomsday" authors quoted in that article was listed as a former "Army intelligence officer". I would remind everyone that "intelligence officer" is not necessarily the same thing as "intelligent officer".
    And have you read any of his books to have something to back that up?


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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    And have you read any of his books to have something to back that up?


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    After having dealt with officers who thought they knew everything for over twenty years, I don't have to read his books. I know the type all too well. The worst of the bunch, by the way, usually came out of Hudson High. I could usually educate the ROTC and OCS types. They were smart enough to realize that a senior NCO who had spent most of his adult life in the Army knew more about it than they did.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    After having dealt with officers who thought they knew everything for over twenty years, I don't have to read his books. I know the type all too well. The worst of the bunch, by the way, usually came out of Hudson High. I could usually educate the ROTC and OCS types. They were smart enough to realize that a senior NCO who had spent most of his adult life in the Army knew more about it than they did.

    Sent from my hp using a keyboard!!
    So you're going to completely dismiss the writings of a person you don't know from Adam, who's not even writing about the army, because at one point in his life he was an intelligence officer?

    Real mature attitude there.


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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    So you're going to completely dismiss the writings of a person you don't know from Adam, who's not even writing about the army, because at one point in his life he was an intelligence officer?

    Real mature attitude there.


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    At my age, I can be as immature as I bloody well want to be.

    The vast majority of officers I dealt with didn't have the brains to pour urine out of a boot with the directions written on the heel. And, if you'll go back and read what I wrote, I said that "intelligence officer" is not necessarily the same as "intelligent officer". I did not say that I dismissed his writings nor did I say I was going to read them.

    sent from my hp using a keyboard!!

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    At my age, I can be as immature as I bloody well want to be.

    The vast majority of officers I dealt with didn't have the brains to pour urine out of a boot with the directions written on the heel. And, if you'll go back and read what I wrote, I said that "intelligence officer" is not necessarily the same as "intelligent officer". I did not say that I dismissed his writings nor did I say I was going to read them.

    sent from my hp using a keyboard!!
    Thanks for the laugh Sarge.

    A common punchline we used in OEF was "MI finally figured out..." or "finally got around to telling us..."

    That's not too say they're inept, they're some of the finest people on earth. It's just that when they screw up you really can't help but notice. SFC is right about the officer corps as well. Some butterbars think they're Patton reincarnated even though they're clueless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    After two years most/all of the unprepared will have died off, and the survivors will have adapted to the new conditions.

    Don't need enough food for the rest of your life, just enough to get through the worst of the upheaval until your local community returns to the agrarian roots that built this country.


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    You know to a certain degree... I agree. THe majority that have not prepared at all will be the ones out in the streets, making thereselve like a fool... probably will be shot or thrown in jail and left to rot. When I use to work in a prison, some of the imates would talk about "this day"... basically they made comments of looting (as espected)... but the idea is that, they will stick together as a group. Their first plan is to visit the upper middle class and rich. Because in general, we have supplies and the rich areas will have the; food, fuel, weapons etc. But most likely they won't stick together. It was a bit scary hearing how they would boast about robbing people in a worse time in our society.

    For me... I basically refuse to save 2 years or more of ammo. For the number one reason... if I have to "bug out"... there's no way I can transport it. And what is "2 years of ammo"? HOw do you rate it? Do you assume you fire off 20 rounds a day or a month? i just can't picture a years worth if I don't have a number to shoot per day. Plus, I have several rounds for each of my guns. I tried to carry 1,000 rounds of .45!!! It aint happening. I think I will be switching to a .22 cal pretty soon. At least a box of it is average at 2,100 rounds (ammo box).

    If I would stock up on something... I say water pills (to clean water). Even if you are over taken my thugs and they have your stuff... but if you can take the water pills, at least you have something to drink.

    Food and drink is just as important as weapons. But if you don't have a "community system" to rely on (say everyone on your block) Survial is going to be really ruff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    SFC is right about the officer corps as well. Some butterbars think they're Patton reincarnated even though they're clueless.
    Those of us from the officer core could say the same thing about some hapless E's we've encountered. However, should we get into a war over this issue? I think not, so let's give it a rest, shall we?

    A wise old MSgt friend of mine once said, "The only difference between the E's and the O's is the heights of the sling of whose butts they rose."
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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Those of us from the officer core could say the same thing about some hapless E's we've encountered. However, should we get into a war over this issue? I think not, so let's give it a rest, shall we?

    A wise old MSgt friend of mine once said, "The only difference between the E's and the O's is the heights of the sling of whose butts they rose."
    I was going to be nice and leave the enlisted alone, but, since you mention it, there are many "sergeants" out there, but damn few NCOs. A "sergeant" is nothing more than a politician in uniform. A NCO is one who accomplishes the mission set for him/her while keeping the welfare of his/her soldiers firmly in mind. A NCO also keeps the welfare and training of his/her officers in mind. And, yes, it is part of a NCO's duty to work on the training of junior officers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    After two years most/all of the unprepared will have died off, and the survivors will have adapted to the new conditions.

    Don't need enough food for the rest of your life, just enough to get through the worst of the upheaval until your local community returns to the agrarian roots that built this country.


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    So you think the multitude of American farmers, truckers and retailers will just throw their hands in the air and say "I give up"? Why do you think they will stop bringing food to market, such would be the end of their prosperity?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    A NCO is one who accomplishes the mission set for him/her while keeping the welfare of his/her soldiers firmly in mind. A NCO also keeps the welfare and training of his/her officers in mind. And, yes, it is part of a NCO's duty to work on the training of junior officers.
    SFC - Rather than risk drifting too far from the OPs topic, if you have no objections I'll be sending you a short PM. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    So you think the multitude of American farmers, truckers and retailers will just throw their hands in the air and say "I give up"? Why do you think they will stop bringing food to market, such would be the end of their prosperity?
    Probably because in such a scenario, we'd be using paper money as toilet paper and few would have enough actual valuable currency to bring that farmer prosperity. And there are always those who find it easier to loot and raid instead of work honestly.

    I'm not saying this is what WOULD happen, simply following the aforementioned thought process.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    So you think the multitude of American farmers, truckers and retailers will just throw their hands in the air and say "I give up"? Why do you think they will stop bringing food to market, such would be the end of their prosperity?

    Hard to bring food to market when there's no money to get paid from doing so, precious little diesel to fuel the trucks, and no goods on the shelves to purchase with that non-existent money. The farmers will have an advantage in that they already know how to live off the land and get their own food.

    Societal collapse is not unprecedented you know. We wouldn't be the first, or the last.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    "Gloom and Doom" scenarios are like sex... it SELLS!

    As I look at today's world, I see a very clear possibility that civilzation - such as it is - could collapse in the not-too-distant future. I do not, however, see it as an unavoidable certainty. But, some folks seem to ask themselves "Where is the money to be made? How can I personally benefit from feeding into the fears of others? I know! I'll write a book or produce a CD/DVD, designed to do exactly that. And, as I do that, maybe I'll team up with somebody in the disaster preparedness business, and throw the name of his business in frequently... for a little extra financial consideration." Armageddon scenarios are profitable only because fear sells. It makes no difference if the process is one of assuaging people's fears, or validating their fears - fear is the selling point. Fear of loss (of goods, property, economic loss, freedom, life, etc, ad nauseum) is a significant motivator to buy, sell, build (some of us remember the bomb shelters of the 1950s), barter - to engage in almost any activity the individual sees as designed to defend against that loss.

    The Internet is overflowing with vendors of doom and gloom. It is a virtual buffet - a cornucopia - of "End of The World" scenarios. I have visited many of the gloom and doom sites, as well as the sites of 'conspiracy theoryists' and the 'ultras' (liberal and conservative), and have come to a 'personal universal (regarding those sites) truth': The vast majority of them not only appeal to your fears, they attempt to reinforce and strengthen those fears... so they can profit from them. And, if you believe everything you read on every one of these sites... YOU WILL BECOME AS CRAZY AS THE TINFOIL-HATS THAT WRITE MOST OF THEM! Many of them make some excellent points about disaster prep. To be totally unprepared for disasters - natural or man-made - is to be prepared for failure. But, expending all the energy of every waking moment worrying about how to prevent the sky from falling (see "Chicken Little Scenario"), is not a sign of good mental health.

    Playing on people's fears is the backbone of "Psy-Ops"... it's how the psychological operatives get other people to do what they want them to do. Should a doom and gloom scenario come about, it is best to be prepared in advance to 'weather the storm'. Do you have to make that preparation your life's work? Absolutely not. Are there potential threats to those things that we hold dearest? Yes, there are - no question about it. "Si vis pacem, parabellum" - if you wish peace, be prepared for war. Who are the best organized (in the sense of abilities and resources) to survive such a thing?
    1. Our military forces (of course)
    2. Law enforcement organizations (Yes, I do recall New Orleans PD during Katrina - hopefully they were the exception rather than the rule)
    3. Street gangs (by sheer numbers, effective leadership, and a natural inclination into lawless behaviors)
    4. And, in smaller numbers, perhaps military-oriented organizations, such as the American Legion and VFW posts.

    Will there be political disaffection within the ranks of our military forces should an apparent "doomsday" come about? Yes. How encompassing will that disaffection be? Nobody can say. Could the military be used to enforce martial law (read as: contain and control the civilian population)? Although our Constitution precludes such actions, it has been done - on both a restricted and massive* basis simultaneously. General Douglas MacArthur dispatched then Major George S. Patton to lead a cavalry charge against roughly 15,000 ex-military civilians in 1932 (estimates ran from 10,000 to 20,000 - Google: "Bonus Army" or "Bonus Expeditionary Force").

    These are just my personal thoughts on what's going on in the world today. While I don't endorse - or even suggest - any reference materials or websites, that doesn't mean I believe they are all useless... even a blind pig finds the occassional acorn. Do some research, remain objective, as best you can filter out the wheat from the chaff, and then follow your own best judgment. The decision that seems 'right' for me, may not be the best one for 90% of the world. Pax...

    *Massive because of the numbers of protestors involved, but restricted to a relatively small geographical area of Washington, D.C.
    Last edited by Gil223; 01-23-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Hard to bring food to market when there's no money to get paid from doing so, precious little diesel to fuel the trucks, and no goods on the shelves to purchase with that non-existent money. The farmers will have an advantage in that they already know how to live off the land and get their own food.

    Societal collapse is not unprecedented you know. We wouldn't be the first, or the last.
    And without central government controls to really screw things up (See famine in China and former Soviet satellite states) people don't starve, society doesn't end it just gets kinda ******. Trucks still deliver goods, farmers still farm, and there is still diesel for people who are working. Argentina never became a post-apocalyptic wasteland where everyone died, heck they still had Universities; crime just increased.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    I know some folks who fell for this FUD in 1999. They were sure that civilization was going to collapse due to the Y2K thing. There were a lot of MREs and generators sold.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    I know some folks who fell for this FUD in 1999. They were sure that civilization was going to collapse due to the Y2K thing. There were a lot of MREs and generators sold.
    You're missing a key difference in that flawed comparison. With Y2K, people were pointing to a specific thing and saying this IS going to happen on THIS date, BE AFRAID! (side note: the concern over Y2K may even have lead to the needed changes that prevented it). None of the "serious" prepper crowd are pointing to any one event, much less any specific time. They are looking at the big picture and deciding that a societal breakdown of some sort is more likely than not, BE PREPARED. Doesn't even need to be some global clustermug. Any kind of large-scale regional disaster can validate exactly the things preppers prepare for. Up here in the PNW, we're on a major fault line capable of a 10+ earthquake and following tsunami, surrounded by five volcanoes most of which are much closer to the Seattle metro area then St. Helens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    And without central government controls to really screw things up (See famine in China and former Soviet satellite states) people don't starve, society doesn't end it just gets kinda ******. Trucks still deliver goods, farmers still farm, and there is still diesel for people who are working. Argentina never became a post-apocalyptic wasteland where everyone died, heck they still had Universities; crime just increased.
    Argentina was already a third world ****-hole before anything collapsed; most of their citizens couldn't care less who or what the "government" was. When a modern, technologically dependent society that is also utterly, dependent on government suddenly finds its self without that government, chaos will ensue. Yes, society can adapt to that lack of government, but that adaptation takes time, and that time is historically a bloody one. Just take the electricity away from a large area for more than a few days and watch what happens.


    Y'know, I find this "it can't happen" mentality really ironic coming from a bunch of people who carry guns every day just because they "might" be assaulted.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Argentina was already a third world ****-hole before anything collapsed; most of their citizens couldn't care less who or what the "government" was. When a modern, technologically dependent society that is also utterly, dependent on government suddenly finds its self without that government, chaos will ensue. Yes, society can adapt to that lack of government, but that adaptation takes time, and that time is historically a bloody one. Just take the electricity away from a large area for more than a few days and watch what happens.


    Y'know, I find this "it can't happen" mentality really ironic coming from a bunch of people who carry guns every day just because they "might" be assaulted.
    I am not contending that disaster can't happen. Just that this idea of total society collapse where afterwords we would look like Barter Town or a pure/mostly agrarian society. I'm from the gulf coast, I know disaster happens, I grew up with disaster happening on a regular basis and where there is total destruction every 30-50 years. People having months or years of supplies is not a one off thing that people buy and never use; its called hurricane supplies and gets used every few years. I simply don't think it helpful or smart to prepare for the wrong disaster. Having a few years of food and firearms is one thing, saying one must prepare for a world where 95% of the population will die because of fiat money is silly. Argentina was not depopulated, farmers still farmed, truckers still delivered goods and stores still sold goods. The only times where one must prepare for the end is when a Stalinist type government is in control where land is taken from farmers, food that is grown is shipped to central locations and much of that is sold off to pay for the government instead of used in the local economy. The US does not have such a Stalinist government yet. The end of the Fiat money would simply bring back hard currency or Nazi/Weinmar style new currency fixes. Even in those cases, yea it sucked, but farmers still did their thing like many others.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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