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Americans prepares for civilization's collapse | Reuters. Sub-culture? Hah!

Gil223

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Jan 5, 2012
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1,392
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Weber County Utah
"Gloom and Doom" scenarios are like sex... it SELLS!

As I look at today's world, I see a very clear possibility that civilzation - such as it is - could collapse in the not-too-distant future. I do not, however, see it as an unavoidable certainty. But, some folks seem to ask themselves "Where is the money to be made? How can I personally benefit from feeding into the fears of others? I know! I'll write a book or produce a CD/DVD, designed to do exactly that. And, as I do that, maybe I'll team up with somebody in the disaster preparedness business, and throw the name of his business in frequently... for a little extra financial consideration." Armageddon scenarios are profitable only because fear sells. It makes no difference if the process is one of assuaging people's fears, or validating their fears - fear is the selling point. Fear of loss (of goods, property, economic loss, freedom, life, etc, ad nauseum) is a significant motivator to buy, sell, build (some of us remember the bomb shelters of the 1950s), barter - to engage in almost any activity the individual sees as designed to defend against that loss.

The Internet is overflowing with vendors of doom and gloom. It is a virtual buffet - a cornucopia - of "End of The World" scenarios. I have visited many of the gloom and doom sites, as well as the sites of 'conspiracy theoryists' and the 'ultras' (liberal and conservative), and have come to a 'personal universal (regarding those sites) truth': The vast majority of them not only appeal to your fears, they attempt to reinforce and strengthen those fears... so they can profit from them. And, if you believe everything you read on every one of these sites... YOU WILL BECOME AS CRAZY AS THE TINFOIL-HATS THAT WRITE MOST OF THEM! Many of them make some excellent points about disaster prep. To be totally unprepared for disasters - natural or man-made - is to be prepared for failure. But, expending all the energy of every waking moment worrying about how to prevent the sky from falling (see "Chicken Little Scenario"), is not a sign of good mental health.

Playing on people's fears is the backbone of "Psy-Ops"... it's how the psychological operatives get other people to do what they want them to do. Should a doom and gloom scenario come about, it is best to be prepared in advance to 'weather the storm'. Do you have to make that preparation your life's work? Absolutely not. Are there potential threats to those things that we hold dearest? Yes, there are - no question about it. "Si vis pacem, parabellum" - if you wish peace, be prepared for war. Who are the best organized (in the sense of abilities and resources) to survive such a thing?
1. Our military forces (of course)
2. Law enforcement organizations (Yes, I do recall New Orleans PD during Katrina - hopefully they were the exception rather than the rule)
3. Street gangs (by sheer numbers, effective leadership, and a natural inclination into lawless behaviors)
4. And, in smaller numbers, perhaps military-oriented organizations, such as the American Legion and VFW posts.

Will there be political disaffection within the ranks of our military forces should an apparent "doomsday" come about? Yes. How encompassing will that disaffection be? Nobody can say. Could the military be used to enforce martial law (read as: contain and control the civilian population)? Although our Constitution precludes such actions, it has been done - on both a restricted and massive* basis simultaneously. General Douglas MacArthur dispatched then Major George S. Patton to lead a cavalry charge against roughly 15,000 ex-military civilians in 1932 (estimates ran from 10,000 to 20,000 - Google: "Bonus Army" or "Bonus Expeditionary Force").

These are just my personal thoughts on what's going on in the world today. While I don't endorse - or even suggest - any reference materials or websites, that doesn't mean I believe they are all useless... even a blind pig finds the occassional acorn. Do some research, remain objective, as best you can filter out the wheat from the chaff, and then follow your own best judgment. The decision that seems 'right' for me, may not be the best one for 90% of the world. Pax...

*Massive because of the numbers of protestors involved, but restricted to a relatively small geographical area of Washington, D.C.
 
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Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
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America
Hard to bring food to market when there's no money to get paid from doing so, precious little diesel to fuel the trucks, and no goods on the shelves to purchase with that non-existent money. The farmers will have an advantage in that they already know how to live off the land and get their own food.

Societal collapse is not unprecedented you know. We wouldn't be the first, or the last.

And without central government controls to really screw things up (See famine in China and former Soviet satellite states) people don't starve, society doesn't end it just gets kinda ******. Trucks still deliver goods, farmers still farm, and there is still diesel for people who are working. Argentina never became a post-apocalyptic wasteland where everyone died, heck they still had Universities; crime just increased.
 

beebobby

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Sep 22, 2008
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I know some folks who fell for this FUD in 1999. They were sure that civilization was going to collapse due to the Y2K thing. There were a lot of MREs and generators sold.
 

Metalhead47

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Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
I know some folks who fell for this FUD in 1999. They were sure that civilization was going to collapse due to the Y2K thing. There were a lot of MREs and generators sold.

You're missing a key difference in that flawed comparison. With Y2K, people were pointing to a specific thing and saying this IS going to happen on THIS date, BE AFRAID! (side note: the concern over Y2K may even have lead to the needed changes that prevented it). None of the "serious" prepper crowd are pointing to any one event, much less any specific time. They are looking at the big picture and deciding that a societal breakdown of some sort is more likely than not, BE PREPARED. Doesn't even need to be some global clustermug. Any kind of large-scale regional disaster can validate exactly the things preppers prepare for. Up here in the PNW, we're on a major fault line capable of a 10+ earthquake and following tsunami, surrounded by five volcanoes most of which are much closer to the Seattle metro area then St. Helens.

And without central government controls to really screw things up (See famine in China and former Soviet satellite states) people don't starve, society doesn't end it just gets kinda ******. Trucks still deliver goods, farmers still farm, and there is still diesel for people who are working. Argentina never became a post-apocalyptic wasteland where everyone died, heck they still had Universities; crime just increased.

Argentina was already a third world ****-hole before anything collapsed; most of their citizens couldn't care less who or what the "government" was. When a modern, technologically dependent society that is also utterly, dependent on government suddenly finds its self without that government, chaos will ensue. Yes, society can adapt to that lack of government, but that adaptation takes time, and that time is historically a bloody one. Just take the electricity away from a large area for more than a few days and watch what happens.


Y'know, I find this "it can't happen" mentality really ironic coming from a bunch of people who carry guns every day just because they "might" be assaulted. :rolleyes:
 

Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
Messages
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America
Argentina was already a third world ****-hole before anything collapsed; most of their citizens couldn't care less who or what the "government" was. When a modern, technologically dependent society that is also utterly, dependent on government suddenly finds its self without that government, chaos will ensue. Yes, society can adapt to that lack of government, but that adaptation takes time, and that time is historically a bloody one. Just take the electricity away from a large area for more than a few days and watch what happens.


Y'know, I find this "it can't happen" mentality really ironic coming from a bunch of people who carry guns every day just because they "might" be assaulted. :rolleyes:

I am not contending that disaster can't happen. Just that this idea of total society collapse where afterwords we would look like Barter Town or a pure/mostly agrarian society. I'm from the gulf coast, I know disaster happens, I grew up with disaster happening on a regular basis and where there is total destruction every 30-50 years. People having months or years of supplies is not a one off thing that people buy and never use; its called hurricane supplies and gets used every few years. I simply don't think it helpful or smart to prepare for the wrong disaster. Having a few years of food and firearms is one thing, saying one must prepare for a world where 95% of the population will die because of fiat money is silly. Argentina was not depopulated, farmers still farmed, truckers still delivered goods and stores still sold goods. The only times where one must prepare for the end is when a Stalinist type government is in control where land is taken from farmers, food that is grown is shipped to central locations and much of that is sold off to pay for the government instead of used in the local economy. The US does not have such a Stalinist government yet. The end of the Fiat money would simply bring back hard currency or Nazi/Weinmar style new currency fixes. Even in those cases, yea it sucked, but farmers still did their thing like many others.
 

SFCRetired

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Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
One bright side to all this gloom-and-doom rhetoric; we, in this community, already possess what is sure to become one of the most valuable media of exchange should civilization collapse. I firmly believe that it will be even more valuable than gold or silver. What is it? Ammunition.

Starting at .22 rimfire, which is one of the best small-game survivor-type-situation available, all the way up to shotgun loads, ammunition will be at a premium.

My own feelings are that handgun and rifle ammunition will be used more for game and, other than for birds, shotgun loads will be used more for defense. You folks that reload and have adequate supplies of primers, bullets, and powder will be sitting on a veritable gold mine.

This is my opinion and I fully realize that many of you are far more knowledgeable than I. I'd love some feedback on this, especially where you think I might be wrong. I've got a couple of young folks I would like to advise and I don't want to steer them wrong.
 

Metalhead47

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Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
I am not contending that disaster can't happen. Just that this idea of total society collapse where afterwords we would look like Barter Town or a pure/mostly agrarian society. I'm from the gulf coast, I know disaster happens, I grew up with disaster happening on a regular basis and where there is total destruction every 30-50 years. People having months or years of supplies is not a one off thing that people buy and never use; its called hurricane supplies and gets used every few years. I simply don't think it helpful or smart to prepare for the wrong disaster. Having a few years of food and firearms is one thing, saying one must prepare for a world where 95% of the population will die because of fiat money is silly. Argentina was not depopulated, farmers still farmed, truckers still delivered goods and stores still sold goods. The only times where one must prepare for the end is when a Stalinist type government is in control where land is taken from farmers, food that is grown is shipped to central locations and much of that is sold off to pay for the government instead of used in the local economy. The US does not have such a Stalinist government yet. The end of the Fiat money would simply bring back hard currency or Nazi/Weinmar style new currency fixes. Even in those cases, yea it sucked, but farmers still did their thing like many others.

How is preparing for ANY disaster preparing for the "wrong" one? You seem to have conveniently ignored where I said preppers are NOT preparing for any one specific thing or time. They are prepping for any number of disasters, yes up to and including a complete global collapse. Your comparison to Argentina is a red herring, we're talking completely different social paradigms here. Such a collapse could come from any number of factors, or probably a whole bunch at once, economic crisis being only ONE. And in this interdependent technologically linked modern world, the collapse of any major power would likely spread to the others like dominoes. Once again, the farmers can't get their crops to market if there's no diesel for the trucks because the entire middle east is a radioactive wasteland. You want to use the "Bartertown" analogy, fine, that's merely one possibility among many of what a recovering society might look like
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
One bright side to all this gloom-and-doom rhetoric; we, in this community, already possess what is sure to become one of the most valuable media of exchange should civilization collapse. I firmly believe that it will be even more valuable than gold or silver. What is it? Ammunition.

Starting at .22 rimfire, which is one of the best small-game survivor-type-situation available, all the way up to shotgun loads, ammunition will be at a premium.

My own feelings are that handgun and rifle ammunition will be used more for game and, other than for birds, shotgun loads will be used more for defense. You folks that reload and have adequate supplies of primers, bullets, and powder will be sitting on a veritable gold mine.

This is my opinion and I fully realize that many of you are far more knowledgeable than I. I'd love some feedback on this, especially where you think I might be wrong. I've got a couple of young folks I would like to advise and I don't want to steer them wrong.

Now this, I agree with. You're certainly not the first person to realize that ammunition can be currency, specifically 22lr. Do some googling for "ballistic wampum", you'll find plenty of the feedback you're looking for.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
This is happening at a very fast pace folks! The USA and Europe have just verified they will sanction Iranian oil and other exports, all because they refuse to stop their nuclear facilities??!! Our administration is bullies, and does whatever Israel wants! Iran has let UN inspectors inside their nuclear facilities, and everytime it's the same thing!, they are not enriching plutonium for nuclear weapons! Yet we kiss israels ass, and they have numerous nuclear weapons, but refuse to let anyone inspect them!!! Iran hasnt even threatened another country in years and years, but we are going to destroy their economy because our socialist elite administration! When Iran shuts the strait of Hormuz, all he'll will break lose! Fuel will be too expensive to buy, not to mention we will enter ww3. Russia and china already said they will back Iran, which means things ate gonna get bad!

I keep at least a thousand rounds of ammo in every caliber I have, if we don't use it, like you've said, it will be great to barter with! I have enough mags that I can reload every weapon at least 5 times without reloading mags, and enough firearms to give 1 to every person in my family if need be! It's better to be prepared, than to be without anything if something was to go down!
 

KYGlockster

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Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
The US does not have such a Stalinist government yet. The end of the Fiat money would simply bring back hard currency or Nazi/Weinmar style new currency fixes. Even in those cases, yea it sucked, but farmers still did their thing like many others.

Not yet is key! We are headed down a road where it will be worse! When you have a president that says he wants to do things by hisself, wants the power to detain citizens, and hold them without due process, wants bills passed to revoke your citizenship if you disagree with his administration, says your a terrorist if you keep ammunition, or food for more than seven days, has his unconstitutional agencies raid preppers food pantries and stores, and demand lists of customers, says the constitution is old and worthless, then I say we are going down a miserable road! What his administration Is doing now, is exactly what Stalin and hitlers done in their time! It's time to prepare!!
 

Dreamer

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Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Being a "prepper" isn't just about the end of the world or being ready to survive a zombie apocalypse. It's about being prepared for ANY disaster that disrupts services and supplies.

As a "low level prepper", I don't have the room or the funds to store up 2 years of ANYTHING, but I do have several weeks worth of ammo, water and non-perishable food items, and a couple camp stoves with a 2-3 week supply of propane. My sweetie thought I was crazy to have a pantry full of that sort of stuff.

Then last year, Hurricane Irene hit my region of NC. We lost power for over 5 days. Water service was unreliable, and with the massive flooding, the water that DID come out of the pipes was not to be trusted. The stores were cleaned out of bread, milk, TP and propane.

Four days into the power being out, I was on the back porch, cooking up a batch of summer sausage gumbo with dirty rice, and washing it down with a cold beer (I had stockpiled blocks of ice in our freezers and coolers).

I had enough candles and lanterns to function in the house well after sundown. I had plenty of food, water, and other potables. I wanted not a thing (except a shave, because I use an electric razor (and hadn't thought to "prep" with some disposable razors and shaving soap).

I kept my cell phone and laptop charged with an inverter in my car. Internet was out, but I did have sporadic cell coverage. (I fille dup my car's gas tank two days before the hurricane hit, and had 5 gallons spare fuel in a tank in the garage.)

I didn't have to worry about my own needs, and helped several neighbors clear out the downed trees and limbs in their yards. I was out the day after the storm hit checking the neighborhood, and seeing if there was anyone who needed help because I had a pretty well-stocked first aid kit (actually, it's essentially a platoon-level field trauma kit) and basic EMT training from when I was in college. I had a garage full of yard implements and a little wagon (saws, chainsaw, hatchets, shovels, etc) and lent my help, my work and my tools to some neighbors in need.

Because I was prepared, I was able to "bug in" for the duration, didn't have to scramble for essentials, and was therefore able to secure my own residence AND help out my fellow neighbors who suffered much more property damage than I.

If I wasn't a "prepper", I would have been eating crackers and peanut butter for days, and wouldn't have been able to help others in need.

Being a "prepper" is first and foremost about providing for yourself and your family. But it ALSO enables you to help other people who may be effected more by such disasters, and that ability to reach out fosters community spirit and goodwill that can be CRITICAL if things were to get REALLY bad in such a situation.

The "gloom and doom" crowd are just drama queens looking to feel important, superior, and draw attention to themselves (and probably make a buck too). But preparing for disasters is a CIVIC DUTY, and anyone who doesn't have at least enough provisions to get through 3 or 4 days of a natural disaster (hurricane, tornado, flood, whatever) is just burying their head in the sand, and expecting others (usually the government) to wipe their little noses when the SHTF.

And we all know from Katrina how well THAT assumption works out...
 
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Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
How is preparing for ANY disaster preparing for the "wrong" one? You seem to have conveniently ignored where I said preppers are NOT preparing for any one specific thing or time. They are prepping for any number of disasters, yes up to and including a complete global collapse. Your comparison to Argentina is a red herring, we're talking completely different social paradigms here. Such a collapse could come from any number of factors, or probably a whole bunch at once, economic crisis being only ONE. And in this interdependent technologically linked modern world, the collapse of any major power would likely spread to the others like dominoes. Once again, the farmers can't get their crops to market if there's no diesel for the trucks because the entire middle east is a radioactive wasteland. You want to use the "Bartertown" analogy, fine, that's merely one possibility among many of what a recovering society might look like

An example of heavy economic stress is not a red herring. Preparing for a disaster that will not happen can be a waste of resources, unless of course the same supplies/equipment would be useful in a disaster that might happen.

Again, most of the time when a region experiences turmoil, business goes on. Disruptions in economic activity have shown themselves to be highly temporary. You seem to assume oil tycoons and their workers would rather not get paid for oil and just starve. Unless resources are stolen they will be brought to market. How about instead of what ifs and mights you try giving an example of when a society did crumble and everyone died because they just gave up on economic activity? Technology is not some delicate magic that can be broken where no one can fix it; technology is just tools and there are plenty of people that know how to make and fix it. Unless all of those people die, then there is no chance of some silly "all technology fails us" apocalypse.
 

Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
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America
Not yet is key! We are headed down a road where it will be worse! When you have a president that says he wants to do things by hisself, wants the power to detain citizens, and hold them without due process, wants bills passed to revoke your citizenship if you disagree with his administration, says your a terrorist if you keep ammunition, or food for more than seven days, has his unconstitutional agencies raid preppers food pantries and stores, and demand lists of customers, says the constitution is old and worthless, then I say we are going down a miserable road! What his administration Is doing now, is exactly what Stalin and hitlers done in their time! It's time to prepare!!

For what? famine because of nationalized farms and theft of food by the government? Wrong disaster, you won't survive that one. The proper disaster to be ready for is the nationalization of private enterprise, and surviving is not winning(because famine and death will follow thus winning the battle to loose the war), stopping the nationalization is winning, or having an escape plan(for cowards).
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
An example of heavy economic stress is not a red herring. Preparing for a disaster that will not happen can be a waste of resources, unless of course the same supplies/equipment would be useful in a disaster that might happen.

Again, most of the time when a region experiences turmoil, business goes on. Disruptions in economic activity have shown themselves to be highly temporary. You seem to assume oil tycoons and their workers would rather not get paid for oil and just starve. Unless resources are stolen they will be brought to market. How about instead of what ifs and mights you try giving an example of when a society did crumble and everyone died because they just gave up on economic activity? Technology is not some delicate magic that can be broken where no one can fix it; technology is just tools and there are plenty of people that know how to make and fix it. Unless all of those people die, then there is no chance of some silly "all technology fails us" apocalypse.

I think the point others are making is that in some scenarios, there will be no one at the market to purchase these items. Whether it be because they have worthless currency, or no way to get to the market due to bodily injury or being blocked into an area because of property damage. You can't assume everything will continue as normal despite a disaster, natural or man made.

Is it likely that no farmer or producer will ever take their product to market ever again? No. Civilization will re-stabilize itself, and life will return to some semblance of normalcy. But what will you do in the mean time?

For what? famine because of nationalized farms and theft of food by the government? Wrong disaster, you won't survive that one. The proper disaster to be ready for is the nationalization of private enterprise, and surviving is not winning(because famine and death will follow thus winning the battle to loose the war), stopping the nationalization is winning, or having an escape plan(for cowards).

Honestly, it's a bit naive to think government stooges wouldn't seize food in the event of some apocalyptic disaster. I can easily envision them hoarding containers of food inside the Capital building, but then again, my tinfoil hat might be a little tight :rolleyes:
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
As a "low level prepper", I don't have the room or the funds to store up 2 years of ANYTHING, but I do have several weeks worth of ammo, water and non-perishable food items, and a couple camp stoves with a 2-3 week supply of propane.
That must be an interesting budgeting problem.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
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America
...
Honestly, it's a bit naive to think government stooges wouldn't seize food in the event of some apocalyptic disaster. I can easily envision them hoarding containers of food inside the Capital building, but then again, my tinfoil hat might be a little tight :rolleyes:

Again if a government has the ability to do that, it is too late; you are trying to solve the wrong problem. Individuals and even large groups can't really beat hydrolic empires, a government that can take all of something and distribute it as it sees fit can't be prepared for, it must be stopped from coming into existance. However, I do agree that one must always be armed and prepared to defend property from theft.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Individuals and even large groups can't really beat hydrolic empires, a government that can take all of something and distribute it as it sees fit can't be prepared for, it must be stopped from coming into existance.
I am not familiar with the word or the usage, hydrolic empires. Please define/explain.
 

Dreamer

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Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
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Location
Grennsboro NC
Honestly, it's a bit naive to think government stooges wouldn't seize food in the event of some apocalyptic disaster. I can easily envision them hoarding containers of food inside the Capital building, but then again, my tinfoil hat might be a little tight :rolleyes:


No, your hat isn't too tight. In fact, the Federal Government is ALREADY making databases of people who store food, and have raided several storable food sellers trying to intimidate them into handing over their customer lists.

The only rational explanation is that they want a database of where the food is, so they can come confiscate it when the collapse comes, just like they did with lawfully-owned firearms in the "high and dry" wealthy neighborhoods of New Orleans during Katrina...

[video=youtube_share;-6ThanSzG_w]http://youtu.be/-6ThanSzG_w[/video]

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15948523/door-to-door-assessment-for-disaster-preparedness

http://www.naturalnews.com/034371_food_storage_federal_agents_customer_list.html
 
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