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Thread: if you are open carrying

  1. #1
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    if you are open carrying

    Let me set up the scenario.

    1. You are openly carrying.
    2. An officer has RAS to stop you because someone called the police and said you were waving your gun around (let's say it was some liberal who decided to lie to try and get you in trouble).


    Is the officer allowed to ask if you have your CCW license even though you are not carrying concealed?

  2. #2
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Is a CCW permit required to carry OC?

    The premise that LE must subscribe to is that every report is credible regardless of the observable facts by a responding LEO(s). In other words, if you are not 'waving your gun around' when LE sees you prior to making contact with you then you are not breaking the law if OC is legal without a CCW permit.

    So, with this in mind, the LEO can ask, you may not be required to comply under the law of that state.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Are there any other witnesses? You are not required to give ID to the officer if you are OCing. An officer can easily see if someone acting rightly or not.

    Always remember this:

    Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
    "Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    Let me set up the scenario.

    1. You are openly carrying.
    2. An officer has RAS to stop you because someone called the police and said you were waving your gun around (let's say it was some liberal who decided to lie to try and get you in trouble).


    Is the officer allowed to ask if you have your CCW license even though you are not carrying concealed?
    He/She can "ask" anything they want. The question is whether or not they have lawful authority to demand it. In your scenario; as long as OC without a CCL would be legal where you are, the answer is no. If you were OC in a place that required a CCL, then the answer is most likely yes.

    So, OC in starbucks, no. OC within 1,000ft of a school, yes.

    IANAL of course. DYODD.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. What is required, and what is expiedent may not be the same.

    I've never been asked for my permit (carrying for over 40 years). I have had only one LE encounter in that 40+ years where my OC was the issue. Someone called in MWAG while I was shopping for hunting camp supplies at a grocery store. Sheriff's deputy drove up as I was loading my camper. Deputy goes "hunting?" I go "yep", as I kept loading supplies...that was the whole conversation.

    Maybe I should point out, here in WA you do not ever need a permit to OC, and you do not need a permit to CC if you are participating in some recreational activity (hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, horseback riding...etc) or going to, or coming from, said activity. So there was no reason to ask for a permit, as, for what I was doing, no permit was required.

    I think as the police in WI become more accustomed to the new law, there will be less problem. We have had things our way for OC forever,,, and our current CC law is from 1961.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    Let me set up the scenario.

    1. You are openly carrying.
    2. An officer has RAS to stop you because someone called the police and said you were waving your gun around (let's say it was some liberal who decided to lie to try and get you in trouble).


    Is the officer allowed to ask if you have your CCW license even though you are not carrying concealed?
    As stated above, they can ask for the moon. I would think "demanding" it requires an issue relevant to having a license-- i.e., if the weapon is concealed or in an area where one is required to have a license to carry at all. If the complaint is simply that you were "waving" your gun around then whether you have a license is really not the issue, so why would the police care if you do?

    I won't say it can't happen, but I'm in the most liberal city in Wisconsin, and I OC'd regularly and I think the chances of "a liberal" doing that stunt are low. I have a psychological theory to explain my reasons for this belief, but I'll only share it privately. hahahahahaha!
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  7. #7
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    lawful authority to demand it
    This would make for an interesting conversation. "Who gave you the authority officer, and what claim can they make for having authority over my person?"

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by technician View Post
    This would make for an interesting conversation. "Who gave you the authority officer, and what claim can they make for having authority over my person?"
    "Lawful authority" is actually in the statute. It's a well defined legal term. It's differentiated from acts performed under color of law. A demand from an enforcer is either made with lawful authority or under color of law. Color of law = beyond the limits of "lawful authority". For example; an officer not having RAS who demands your CCL does not have lawful authority. An officer having RAS who demands it has lawful authority. Unfortunately, it's up to you; the citizen, to know which is which.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    As stated above, they can ask for the moon. I would think "demanding" it requires an issue relevant to having a license-- i.e., if the weapon is concealed or in an area where one is required to have a license to carry at all. If the complaint is simply that you were "waving" your gun around then whether you have a license is really not the issue, so why would the police care if you do?

    I won't say it can't happen, but I'm in the most liberal city in Wisconsin, and I OC'd regularly and I think the chances of "a liberal" doing that stunt are low. I have a psychological theory to explain my reasons for this belief, but I'll only share it privately. hahahahahaha!
    I asked this question because it actually happened here in west bend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    An officer having RAS who demands it has lawful authority.
    As before, authority from whom? The officer, if he chose to answer the question I posed, would eventually have to admit he would use the threat (or actual act) of violence if you didn't follow a law created by a select few people that now magically applies to everyone. So recognizing "authority" is forced on you by violence, or by your own personal choice/consent.

    Anyway this was just an amusing thought I pondered if I was in a similar situation to the original post.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by technician View Post
    As before, authority from whom? The officer, if he chose to answer the question I posed, would eventually have to admit he would use the threat (or actual act) of violence if you didn't follow a law created by a select few people that now magically applies to everyone. So recognizing "authority" is forced on you by violence, or by your own personal choice/consent.

    Anyway this was just an amusing thought I pondered if I was in a similar situation to the original post.
    You're preaching to the choir but I'm explaining the law as it is. If you want to get into Natural Law and classic liberal/libertarian dogma I'm happy to do so in another thread.
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    This issue has been covered before:

    175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon.
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...0?view=section

    175.60(2g)(c) Unless the licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her out-of-state license and photographic identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    Here is the exception referred to above, under which you do NOT have to display CCL and photo id if you are carrying a concealed weapon:

    941.23(2)(e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    There are NO requirements to display CCL if you are NOT carrying a concealed weapon.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 01-25-2012 at 07:25 PM.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Going to take a moment to play the devil's advocate..........

    When are you OC vs. CC? When you're in your vehicle, you're OC. But when you're vehicle is parked in a parking lot outside of a coffee shop, you're CC (we all know the case I'm referring to). If I'm in Wal-Mart OCing, and I'm standing in the coffee aisle picking out the coffee I want and LEO approaches from my weak side, my weapon is hidden/CC'd. Or, my jacket has fallen over it. Whatever.

    My point is, at some point in time you could easily be viewed as CCing when your intent was OC. I got my permit/license for the sole purpose of avoiding this situation. I OC most places I go, but occasionally I forget to pull my sweatshirt up over my weapon (or completely over it). When the bottom four inches of my weapon/holster are visible, am I OC or CC?

    Is this OC'd or CC'd?

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    You can speak softy and carry a big stick, but I'll stick to my guns.

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  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    LOL WOW

    Maybe if we pick at this, OC v. cc, long enough then we can get the same tyrant-wannabes that wrote Act-35 to further define concealment for us.

    Gee, wouldn't that be nice. All for a sheep and her shepherd not able to admit culpability. I think that I'll send a letter to my legislators.

  15. #15
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusToter View Post
    Going to take a moment to play the devil's advocate.........

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Doesn't it look like the slide is slightly retracted on that piece?

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