Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 56

Thread: 5th Amendment rights and encryption.

  1. #1
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098

    5th Amendment rights and encryption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Yes.

    Read Electronic Frontiers Foundation EFF.org Read Electronic Privacy Information Center EPIC.org

  3. #3
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    So really... No opinions on this eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  4. #4
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    What opinion do you seek?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,929
    A judge on Monday ordered a Colorado woman to decrypt her laptop computer so prosecutors can use the files against her in a criminal case.

    The defendant, accused of bank fraud, had unsuccessfully argued that being forced to do so violates the Fifth Amendment’s protection against compelled self-incrimination.
    Here's my opinion...


  6. #6
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Before I would venture an opinion, I'd want to know what the courts have decided in matters involving locked automobiles, locked houses and businesses, locked boxes and locked safes.
    I don't see a material difference between something being encrypted (software locked) file and something being physically secured (hardware locked).

  7. #7
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Before I would venture an opinion, I'd want to know what the courts have decided in matters involving locked automobiles, locked houses and businesses, locked boxes and locked safes.
    I don't see a material difference between something being encrypted (software locked) file and something being physically secured (hardware locked).
    This was sort of my thought about it. Can "the State" force someone to unlock things in order to find evidence, physically or otherwise. I would venture to say no, they cannot.

    Who in their right mind would just hand over a key or whatever have you in order to hand evidence to the very people who are attempting to hang you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Before I would venture an opinion, I'd want to know what the courts have decided in matters involving locked automobiles, locked houses and businesses, locked boxes and locked safes.
    I don't see a material difference between something being encrypted (software locked) file and something being physically secured (hardware locked).
    The difference is in being forced to act against your own interests.

    A lock can be picked. A door can be kicked.
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-24-2012 at 04:10 PM.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The difference is in being forced to act against your own interests.

    A lock can be picked. A door can be kicked.
    And encryption can be broken. People decrypt sensitive information all the time. If the state wants the data they should take the time to decrypt it themselves. If it were me in the case, I would not do it even under court order. No Way No How.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    And encryption can be broken. People decrypt sensitive information all the time. If the state wants the data they should take the time to decrypt it themselves. If it were me in the case, I would not do it even under court order. No Way No How.
    n June 2003, the U.S. Government announced that AES may be used to protect classified information:
    Win 7 Bitlocker (AES 128 or 256bit in this case) encryption is pretty beefy. It would take enormous amounts of computing power an untold amount of time to even think about cracking 256bit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...ption_Standard

    Good luck with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  11. #11
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The difference is in being forced to act against your own interests.

    A lock can be picked. A door can be kicked.
    ... and a super-computer is capable of its own brand of brute force and of monstrous cost. Unintended constitutional consequences may be part of the monstrous cost.

    Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.

  12. #12
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    ... and a super-computer is capable of its own brand of brute force and of monstrous cost. Unintended constitutional consequences may be part of the monstrous cost.

    Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.
    Even kei the current most powerful supercomputer in the world

    In June when it hit 1 quadrillion calculations per second, or one petaflop, it consumed 9.89 megawatts of power
    Source: The Inquirer (http://s.tt/14cSy)
    It would still take an enormous amount of time.

    AFAIK its all theory math, but.. (from wiki) AES permits the use of 256-bit keys. Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires (2 to the 128th) power times more computational power than a 128-bit key. A device that could check a billion billion (10to the 18th power) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would in theory require about (3×10 to the 51st power) years to exhaust the 256-bit key space.

    Which is like what.. 50,955,671,114,250,072,156,962,268,275,658,377,807 ,020,642,877,435,085 years?

    This is all brute force method, unless someone has the key, its going to take whoever a very long time to crack the encryption.
    Last edited by VW_Factor; 01-24-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: cleaning up the powers formatting
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Win 7 Bitlocker (AES 128 or 256bit in this case) encryption is pretty beefy. It would take enormous amounts of computing power an untold amount of time to even think about cracking 256bit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...ption_Standard

    Good luck with that.
    I am not saying it will be easy. I am saying it can be done. I am a programmer so I am well aware of encryption.

    I further read the judges orders:
    1) The court is asking that she decrypt her hard drive on her laptop for a case against her husband
    2) The court has given HER full immunity from anything they find on the laptop
    3) A separate search warrant was requested and granted specific to the laptop due to a phone conversation make between the defendant and the wife
    4) The prosecution has already tried to decrypt said hard drive and failed

    The judge seems to be stretching some circumstances in existing cases to make this sound more constitutional however even after reading it, I don't see how he could side with prosecution and I personally would still not provide unencrypted hard drive if anything on there could implicate my significant other.

    Ruling: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/th...01/decrypt.pdf
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 01-24-2012 at 06:17 PM.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Don't compare general purpose supercomputer Apples to special purpose supercomputer oranges, like Deep Crack that was built twenty years ago to break the DES - by EFF.org (cited above). 56 hours for a 56 bit key after searching a quarter of the parameter space.

    https://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto/Cr...f_des_faq.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc...ndard#Security

    Be careful of basing unique events on frequentist statistics, for which Bayesian methods are more effective. Be careful of the Ludic fallacy.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-24-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    Simply talking calculations per second (regardless of what the computer cluster is meant for).

    Its really the only way to put such things into terms that are easier to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  16. #16
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Putting something in terms easier to understand is, if I may conflate Taleb's later writings into his Ludic fallacy, the 'Procrustean fallacy.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taleb#...hical_theories
    Quote Originally Posted by Taleb, Wiki
    His book The Bed of Procrustes summarizes the central problem: "we humans, facing limits of knowledge, and things we do not observe, the unseen and the unknown, resolve the tension by squeezing life and the world into crisp commoditized ideas". Taleb disagrees with Platonic (i.e., theoretical) approaches to reality to the extent that they lead people to have the wrong map of reality rather than no map at all. He opposes most economic and grand social science theorizing, which in his view suffer acutely from the problem of overuse of Plato's Theory of Forms.

    Relatedly, he also believes that universities are better at public relations and claiming credit than generating knowledge. He argues that knowledge and technology are usually generated by what he calls "stochastic tinkering" rather than by top-down directed research.
    "Stochastic tinkering" is trimming the problem to fit the frequentists' statistical framework fallaciously.

    http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/Princeton-phil.WMA
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 01-24-2012 at 07:14 PM.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    And encryption can be broken. People decrypt sensitive information all the time. If the state wants the data they should take the time to decrypt it themselves. If it were me in the case, I would not do it even under court order. No Way No How.
    Yup.

    And if my encryption is too good.... Tough.
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-24-2012 at 07:22 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    182
    Been discussing this on another forum. I have no problem with the prosecution seizing the computer and attempting to retrieve any information from it that they are able, in order to further their case. However, the defendant should under no circumstances essentially have to provide all the information for them.
    Last edited by Polynikes; 01-24-2012 at 07:29 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  19. #19
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    Assuming my drive was encrypted I'd give you the key to the backup OS.

    http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=plausible-deniability

  20. #20
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I am not saying it will be easy. I am saying it can be done. I am a programmer so I am well aware of encryption.

    I further read the judges orders:
    1) The court is asking that she decrypt her hard drive on her laptop for a case against her husband
    2) The court has given HER full immunity from anything they find on the laptop
    3) A separate search warrant was requested and granted specific to the laptop due to a phone conversation make between the defendant and the wife
    4) The prosecution has already tried to decrypt said hard drive and failed

    The judge seems to be stretching some circumstances in existing cases to make this sound more constitutional however even after reading it, I don't see how he could side with prosecution and I personally would still not provide unencrypted hard drive if anything on there could implicate my significant other.

    Ruling: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/th...01/decrypt.pdf
    His lawyer should seek an injunction against her testimony under the spousal testimonial privilege.

    http://www.invispress.com/law/evidence/trammel.html
    Last edited by sharkey; 01-24-2012 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Better Link

  21. #21
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    Damn, I read the link that was supposed to support my statement and it didn't. In AZ you can refuse to let your spouse testify unless they are the victim. I guess federal judges threw rights/privileges out the window again.

    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS
    Last edited by sharkey; 01-24-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    Here's a great analogy in the article comments;

    "And if my filing cabinet is full of documents written in code? Do I have to translate it? Is that part of the warrant?

    I think that's more relevant to this case, so I'd like to know. "

    I'm curious, is there case law for that?

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    This is as much a 4A case as 5A, and I think 4A precedent is sufficient.

    Saying that you must provide your password is no different than saying you must provide the keys to your safe just because the police have a search warrant for your house. They can seize it if they have a warrant for it, but it's up to them to open it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    I80, USA
    Posts
    2,661
    I'm not sure what the point is in bringing up the difficult of cracking the encryption. It shouldn't matter how hard it is to crack.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Saying that you must provide your password is no different than saying you must provide the keys to your safe just because the police have a search warrant for your house. They can seize it if they have a warrant for it, but it's up to them to open it.
    To get around the 5th ammendment they are trying to go the following route instead:
    -They are NOT requesting passwords (as this is clearly protected)
    -They ARE requesting an unencrypted version of the disk be provided

    They seem to think that if they know files exist on the disk, then they have the legal right to request a copy of the files under a warrant. However, to relate this back to a bunch of letters written in code in a filing cabinet, this would still be related to to that. Its like not asking for the encryption key but rather for the person to provide an unecrypted version of every document in the cabinet.

    I still think its covered under the 5th and would not provided requested information.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •