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Thread: HB 237 This dangerous bill moves on

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    HB 237 This dangerous bill moves on

    Yesterday it took another step:

    Summary as introduced:
    Criminal history record information checks upon handgun purchases; protective order registry; dissemination of information. Provides that certain criminal history record information and protective order registry information shall be made available to the Attorney General of the United States for the purposes of a National Instant Criminal Background check to determine a person’s eligibility to possess or purchase a firearm under state or federal law. The bill also limits the requirement for a Virginia-specific criminal history record information check to the purchase of handguns only. Under current law, the Virginia-specific criminal history record information check applies to all purchases of any firearm in the Commonwealth. Full text:
    01/10/12 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/11/12 12103492D pdf

    Status:
    01/10/12 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/11/12 12103492D
    01/10/12 House: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice
    01/23/12 House: Referred from Courts of Justice by voice vote
    01/23/12 House: Referred to Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety

    When are we going to learn that giving more information to the Federal Government is NOT a good thing.

    A little recent news about how information mainlined to the Feds is used and abused:
    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...tudent-records

    Since “No Child Left Behind” was passed 10 years ago, states have been required to ramp up the amount of data they collect about individual students, teachers, and schools. Personal information, including test scores, economic status, grades, and even disciplinary problems and student pregnancies, are tracked and stored in a kind of virtual “permanent record” for each student.

    Privacy experts say the problem is that states collect far more information than parents expect, and it can be shared with more than just a student’s teacher or principal.“When you have a system that’s secret [from parents] and you can put whatever you want into it, you can have things going in that’ll be very damaging,” says Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. “When you put something into digital form, you can’t control where that’ll end up.”
    Same thing with medical records, employment records...on and on.

    Considering how gun owners have been targeted in the past, it simply amazes me that we would be naive enough to fall for this crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yesterday it took another step:



    When are we going to learn that giving more information to the Federal Government is NOT a good thing.

    A little recent news about how information mainlined to the Feds is used and abused:
    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...tudent-records



    Same thing with medical records, employment records...on and on.

    Considering how gun owners have been targeted in the past, it simply amazes me that we would be naive enough to fall for this crap.
    is this the P4P billthat exempts CHP holders? or a diff one?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67GT390FB View Post
    is this the P4P billthat exempts CHP holders? or a diff one?
    This is one of them. I figure one will pass so I support Todd Gilbert's that exempts ALL firearms and does not pipe additional information to the Feds.
    I'd just as soon none of them would pass but there are enough blind hogs looking for acorns, that one might get through.

    If it does make it, they'll be dancing in the streets singing their praises for being Pro 2nd.

    This one opens the books to the US Attorney General and only exempts long guns.

    Freedom's just another name for nothing left to lose!
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-24-2012 at 04:17 PM.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Go ahead, call me a cynic....

    Could there be any connection between the slowdown of VASP background checks and the promise of faster service if we switch to the Federal system? Coincidence? I was born but it wasn't yesterday and the fall from that turnip truck only damaged my head not anything valuable....... Legislation at just the right time, hmmmm.

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    This bill will give the Feds all control of long gun transactions in Va. There is no exemption for long guns other than being exempt from VA doing the check. Handguns will have their checks done by the VSP just like before. The problem with this is once the long guns are there handguns will be right behind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    This bill will give the Feds all control of long gun transactions in Va. There is no exemption for long guns other than being exempt from VA doing the check. Handguns will have their checks done by the VSP just like before. The problem with this is once the long guns are there handguns will be right behind it.
    Huh?

    That's the goal - move away from non-instant V-Check to NICS, and reduce Va. State Police generally in gun transfer related matters.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Huh?

    That's the goal - move away from non-instant V-Check to NICS, and reduce Va. State Police generally in gun transfer related matters.
    That's right TKD.

    What makes this bill the worst of the bad is the pipeline to the Feds.

    You have to remember that the semi-anti gun legislators far outnumber the true pro gun people. They are wafflers that try to play up to both sides.

    It's too early to work this bill yet. This is one where the wafflers and true anti's will actually be upholding Virginia's gun rights by gutting the bill so badly when it's combined with others, that the House and Senate can't agree and it times out.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This is one of them. I figure one will pass so I support Todd Gilbert's that exempts ALL firearms and does not pipe additional information to the Feds.
    I'd just as soon none of them would pass but there are enough blind hogs looking for acorns, that one might get through.

    If it does make it, they'll be dancing in the streets singing their praises for being Pro 2nd.

    This one opens the books to the US Attorney General and only exempts long guns.

    Freedom's just another name for nothing left to lose!
    I have to agree on this one.

    With all the ruckus about Holder's involvement in Fast & Furious, why would we yield more control to such an individual? (Yes, he won't be AG forever, but vesting such power into the hands of one individual borders on tyranny by consent.)
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    This bill will give the Feds all control of long gun transactions in Va. There is no exemption for long guns other than being exempt from VA doing the check. Handguns will have their checks done by the VSP just like before. The problem with this is once the long guns are there handguns will be right behind it.
    The problem is that the VSP has screwed the pooch. Their system is broken. They should be fixed, or eliminated from the process.

    Posted by a dealer on 19 Dec 2011 here: http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ub...kground_Checks

    I had 18 Delays at the Dale City show this weekend. One delay came back approved (the guys name must have been really close to a felon's name or they would not have looked so quickly). One went into research, and another was denied for exceeding the one handgun every 30 day law.

    The remaining 15 are still delayed, with the oldest one being from 10:19am Saturday morning. This indvidual is now going on three days without so much as someone at the state police looking at his background check.

    When I spoke to them yesterday late afternoon they were still working on Thursdays checks.
    Sounds like this bill would bypass the broken VSP system, at least for long guns.

    If people have a better, achievable alternative, I'd like to hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's right TKD.

    What makes this bill the worst of the bad is the pipeline to the Feds.
    You are confused - Virginia already shares mosy gun rights disabling data e.g., criminal convictions and mental health adjudications with the federal Attorney General for use in NICS via the Central Criminal Records Exchange (CCRE). In fact the first thing the VSP does on gun checks is run . . . yes, a NICS check!

    The two bills seeking to make Virginia to a NICS state would share protective orders and cetain juvinile delinquency ajudications so that NICS could enforce Va. specific law.

    This would also close a loophole allowing these persons currently to go to other states and buy guns unlawfully in NICS checks.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    You are confused - Virginia already shares mosy gun rights disabling data e.g., criminal convictions and mental health adjudications with the federal Attorney General for use in NICS via the Central Criminal Records Exchange (CCRE). In fact the first thing the VSP does on gun checks is run . . . yes, a NICS check!

    The two bills seeking to make Virginia to a NICS state would share protective orders and cetain juvinile delinquency ajudications so that NICS could enforce Va. specific law.

    This would also close a loophole allowing these persons currently to go to other states and buy guns unlawfully in NICS checks.
    No Mike, you're confused about how much we share and under what conditions, but it doesn't matter now.
    It's history for this year!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    A little of the audio. Listen to the comments about the Feds and additional information.

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    Peter thanks for the audio i just wish you had more of that specific hearing. I would also like to point out there is still one more bill hanging out that could essentially do the same thing. That bill happens to be the one that will try to eliminate the fee the VSP charges if this is done it could force the state to abandon the firearms unit and go to the feds since there would be no funding.

    PS if you have more audio, is there a way to hear all you have for that particular bill/hearing.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    Peter thanks for the audio i just wish you had more of that specific hearing. I would also like to point out there is still one more bill hanging out that could essentially do the same thing. That bill happens to be the one that will try to eliminate the fee the VSP charges if this is done it could force the state to abandon the firearms unit and go to the feds since there would be no funding.

    PS if you have more audio, is there a way to hear all you have for that particular bill/hearing.
    I have the whole hearing until around 4:00.
    I'll put it up when I get to some decent broad band. I'm on the farm and it just took me an hour to upload a one minute clip to Old Virginia News.
    Couldn't resist a little dig at Marsh & Saslaw.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-26-2012 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Couldn't resist a little dig at Marsh & Saslaw.
    And it was well worth it.
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The two bills seeking to make Virginia to a NICS state would share protective orders and cetain juvinile delinquency ajudications so that NICS could enforce Va. specific law.
    Here's a thought: repeal the Va. specific laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Here's a thought: repeal the Va. specific laws.
    Yes, if you want to eliminate the DQ, repeal it - in the meantime, get rid of this Virginia monstrosity that as a practical matter prevents lawfulk gun sales where NICS would not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes, if you want to eliminate the DQ, repeal it - in the meantime, get rid of this Virginia monstrosity that as a practical matter prevents lawfulk gun sales where NICS would not.
    How does Virginias check prevent lawful gun sales where NICS would not. I call hogwash on this. It might not be as quick but then again the Feds are being paid twice as much and they have more people doing the same amount of work- by this i mean Va has 5 people doing the entire state of Va the Feds would bring in maybe 20 which would mean your federal taxes would go up to help pay for those federal positions. The syatem the Feds use is almost a mirror image of the one Va uses. Heck in the video the C&E gunshow rep even comments about PA being a point of contact state like Va and they have a great system, well check with PA and see how many employees they have doing the backgroundchecks its about 4 times what VA has.
    Also name 1 program that the FEDS have run correctly it you want to point out this one well they did COPY VA eleven years ago. Why would you want the FEDS in charge of your guns rights right now the state is between you and them. Why not fix whats broken instead of wanting to give the FEDs that much more control/power over you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    How does Virginias check prevent lawful gun sales where NICS would not.
    That's easy - generally, V-Check does not approve lawful sales as quickly as NICS does - this fact was uncontested by all participants in the recent Senate hearing on Sen. Black's bill to move long sales to NICS.

    Sometimes the system is down for 5 hours at a time. See http://articles.dailypress.com/2012-...omputer-system

    And during heavy demand periods, like gun show weekends, gun dealers are left standing idly by while the state police take hours or days to finsih checks EVEN WHEN the computer system is up and running.

    While millions of dollars in more taxpayer money might enable the state police to speed up checks by hiring more workers, this will not help on the days when the entire rube-goldberg computer system Virginia uses goes offline.

    In the end, it makes sense for Virginia to switch to NICS for both long guns and handguns as OHGAM appears to be killed this session.

    NICS will enforce state specific disqualifers per 18 USC 922(t). Based upon the Senate hearing comments from the State Police and Office of the Executive Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court, it appears now confirmed that all the Virginia state specific gun purchase disqualifiers are available to the federal government already except for certain serious juvenile delinquency adjudications. Sen. Black's bill takes a priavcy page out of the general assembly's play book on mental health adjudications and shares only the fact that an individual is prohibited from purchasing firearms as a result of a serious juvenile delinquency adjudication.

    Sharing this serious juvenile delinquency adjudications related disability information with NICS also has an added benefit in allowing NICS to prevent these former juvenile delinquents (who comitted felonies but the adjudication of this fact is now kept secret within Virginia) to purchase firearms in other states - currently these people can by guns in any state except Virginia.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    I'm a bit confused here.

    I have puchased several HGs and LGs over the last several years, all in Virginia, from FFLs at gun shows, mom & pop stores, and large chains. At each purchase, I've filled out the requisite 4473 and the VA form. My approvals have always been instantaneous.

    Now for my question(s).

    The FFL enters my information into the query web page of the VSP and receives a response (proceed, deny, hold, etc). Does this response result from a search of only the VA data base, with results reported to the Feds, or does this response include (partial) queries of the Fed (NICS) data base as well as the VA data base?

    If only the NICS were checked, then individuals with serious juvenile issues in other states, which were kept sealed in that state, would be able to purchase firearms here (perhaps they moved here). BTW, this is also true if only the VA data bases are checked. Is there a NICS requirement that if a state relies on their system, that state must furnish sealed record information to the Feds?

    Virginia doesn't have a corner on Rube Goldberg computer systems. Fed computer systems are notoriously erratic performers too.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I'm a bit confused here.

    I have puchased several HGs and LGs over the last several years, all in Virginia, from FFLs at gun shows, mom & pop stores, and large chains. At each purchase, I've filled out the requisite 4473 and the VA form. My approvals have always been instantaneous.

    Now for my question(s).

    The FFL enters my information into the query web page of the VSP and receives a response (proceed, deny, hold, etc). Does this response result from a search of only the VA data base, with results reported to the Feds, or does this response include (partial) queries of the Fed (NICS) data base as well as the VA data base?

    If only the NICS were checked, then individuals with serious juvenile issues in other states, which were kept sealed in that state, would be able to purchase firearms here (perhaps they moved here). BTW, this is also true if only the VA data bases are checked. Is there a NICS requirement that if a state relies on their system, that state must furnish sealed record information to the Feds?

    Virginia doesn't have a corner on Rube Goldberg computer systems. Fed computer systems are notoriously erratic performers too.
    The current system taps a number of databases both state and federal.

    There is no Federal requirment for sealed information.

    It only knocks out the State Databases. The search is the same otherwise.

    It feeds information to the Feds that currently is not available to them. Whatever reason given, that's bad.

    If you have to have a bad bill, have the best one out there and that's one that exempts all guns not just long guns.

    They keeping using the Gunshow word(s) That makes me hate this bill without further investigation.

    Last, going on the assumption that all felonies committed by juveniles are violent and the kid should be branded with a scarlet letter, is nonsense. Sure he could buy a gun in another state. So what?
    There is a very good chance that Va will restore rights to non violent felons after a period of time in the near future. Bills for that come up every year and are moving closer to passing all the time.

    The good Senator Black needs to pull his head out of that granulated asphault NOVA calls sand.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-29-2012 at 12:01 PM.

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    Mike I'm sorry you can't understand that Va just doesn't have the people to do the work. The feds have more than enough and thats why they move more transaction quicker that is the bottom line. The systems run the same, for you to say they dont well maybe study up a bit and you will learn more of what you speak.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    Mike I'm sorry you can't understand that Va just doesn't have the people to do the work. The feds have more than enough and thats why they move more transaction quicker that is the bottom line. The systems run the same, for you to say they dont well maybe study up a bit and you will learn more of what you speak.
    You seemed perturbed with Mike, but you're helping him make his point.

    You say that "the feds ... move more transaction quicker that is the bottom line." Yeah, that's the bottom line. The state gov't can't run a check system. The VA system is broken. The Fed system works.

    I want my purchases from FFLs to be w/o a check (that would be in line with the Constitution), but until that day arrives, I'd rather go through the system that takes minutes rather than the one that takes days. I say, lay off some dead weight in Richmond and go with the Fed system.

    It seems the legislature now wants to try to fix the VA system with $400K. I hope that fixes it. If not, we'll be back in the same place next year, looking for a system that actually functions.

    People I respect (e.g. Peter Nap) are against the shift to the Fed system. I'm remaining open to their reasoning, and trying to see their perspective, but I'm not convinced why we should stick with a broken system that has effectively instituted a multi-day waiting period in our state. It's hurting gun buyers, and it's hurting gun dealers.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    You seemed perturbed with Mike, but you're helping him make his point.

    You say that "the feds ... move more transaction quicker that is the bottom line." Yeah, that's the bottom line. The state gov't can't run a check system. The VA system is broken. The Fed system works.

    I want my purchases from FFLs to be w/o a check (that would be in line with the Constitution), but until that day arrives, I'd rather go through the system that takes minutes rather than the one that takes days. I say, lay off some dead weight in Richmond and go with the Fed system.

    It seems the legislature now wants to try to fix the VA system with $400K. I hope that fixes it. If not, we'll be back in the same place next year, looking for a system that actually functions.

    People I respect (e.g. Peter Nap) are against the shift to the Fed system. I'm remaining open to their reasoning, and trying to see their perspective, but I'm not convinced why we should stick with a broken system that has effectively instituted a multi-day waiting period in our state. It's hurting gun buyers, and it's hurting gun dealers.
    Mark, my reasoning isn't all that clear, nor do I expect everyone to agree with it. This is more in line with Thundar and Wylde

    I don't like giving any new powers (read that information) to the Federal Government. With Homeland Security tightening the noose every day and the Obama Administration looking for any nick in our armor, it's simply suicidal.

    Even though I don't like the idea of the State Stepping aside (they are still in the game though) I want to take the most painless beating possible.

    Can anyone explain to me what this bill which I consider the very bottom of the barrel, has that Gilbert.s Bill doesn't?

    Now to follow that reasoning, you have to also accept the idea that we have some serious problems in this country that aren't going away unless we make them go away.

    If not being inconvenienced is more important to people than leaving a free country to our Children and Grand Children, we really don't need to debate it because we're too far apart.

    Now for those that think that's radical thinking...it probably is but it's based on experience. I have a brother in law, nice fellow but doesn't have a grain of sense.
    He was in favor of the Assault Weapons Ban. He fell for the safe streets gibberish. I gave him about the same speech I just made and he said:

    Oh it won't hurt me. All I have is my model 1100.

    He changed his tune when the Feds started making noises like his 1100 might be a Devil Gun too.

    It was too late then and look at how long and how hard we had to fight to make it go away.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-29-2012 at 09:56 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I don't like giving any new powers (read that information) to the Federal Government. With Homeland Security tightening the noose every day and the Obama Administration looking for any nick in our armor, it's simply suicidal.
    this!
    most definitely!
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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