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Thread: NVFAC and the CC Shooting Park.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    NVFAC and the CC Shooting Park.

    The following is a copy of a note I just sent to the Coalition.

    TBG


    I just read in the Jan 21st edition of NVFAC Firing Line that the Coalition was represented at the 3 gun shoot at the CC Shooting Park. As a member of NVFAC I strenuously object to participation in events held there. Clark County, owner of the park, does everything in it's power to usurp our US and Nevada Constitutional rights as well as igoring state pre-emption. In no way should we as individuals, or our associations, support Clark County in any form. There is NO excuse for it.
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Mine was similar as well. Funny that the CCSP is a member of our org. How can a govt entity join a pvt group? That would be like the national parks joining the NRA, no?

    I am growing increasingly frustrated with the group. They have talked of action but keep putting it off it seems.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Sometimes I feel bad about not knowing what's going on the CC shooting park/range/name-of-the-week, but every time you guys talk about it, I'm reminded why I've never bothered to make it out there. I happily tell my students why I don't go there, too.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Reply and my response

    Reply and my response.

    TBG


    Tim,

    Thanks for your comments, you make a good point. However when we were almost able to get rid of gun registration in 2008 only 9 people showed up for the public hearing. Hope you were one of them. If we had had a 100 testify and voice their displeasure there would be no registration now.

    Also, the more people that shoot, the more people are interested in doing away with registration and defending our rights. We have to go where the shooters are. Canít hide from them. By boycotting the range, Clark County controls our actions. We need to control theirs and we can only do that by networking and growing the organization. We need to fight smart. Principals are great, but donít necessary garner the support we need to have the right side prevail.

    Does Desert Sportsman or Boulder, or any other range in Las Vegas deny Metro the ability to shoot on their ranges? If not, why not? Maybe they should feel the love as well.

    This year we are going after preemption and registration. We need bodies, lots of bodies to support us.

    Thanks,
    Don




    Don

    Thank you for responding to me but I have to disagree with you. The point of the boycott is that there be no shooters at CCSP to recruit. I strongly believe in voting with my dollars. I donít do business with any establishment that does not honor my right to self-defense, and this includes Clark County.

    Just the opposite is true with regard to who controls who. The best way to control the County at this point, at least until next legislative session or a suit can prevail, is to hurt them financially. Let the County explain to the citizens why the range is failing and the County is tossing endless money into a bottomless hole. I donít believe that your analogy of Metro shooting at other ranges quite drives home your point. In fact I believe it is counterproductive to your argument.

    Unfortunately I was not active in this cause in 2008 but had I known of it, I certainly would have been. You can of course count on my support with regard to any movement towards the end of ridding us of registration and clarifying pre-emption in the future. I will however continue to ask people not to support anything to do with the County.

    Regards

    Tim
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    In the helmet law fight we fill up the legislative building every time. We have bikers get up and talk that are attorneys, doctors etc. You can look up the minuets. The problem that we face every year is the Government (on our dime) lobbying the government. If we are to believe that "had we had a couple more dudes show interest " the lawmakers would have done the right thing we are fooling ourselves. there are 40 years of fighting helmet laws in this state that say otherwise. If we the people matter to them so much, why are they listening to the government.

    To sopport the CC shooting park is a slap in the face to the business owner who has to make his bills every month and support his family, Clark County Robs the taxpayer every chance they get, so they do not need to make a profit from the shooting park, they have no problem paying 1.8 million (of your money) to the last family that had a loved one shot. this county is corrupt and I go out of my way to "starve the power"

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    Don makes good points. Especially:
    Does Desert Sportsman or Boulder, or any other range in Las Vegas deny Metro the ability to shoot on their ranges? If not, why not? Maybe they should feel the love as well.
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?
    Last edited by varminter22; 01-27-2012 at 08:49 AM.

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    In my opinion, financial boycotts of government-owned facilities just won't work. Governments don't think like normal business owners. The only likely result of a successful boycott would be the closing of the shooting park, and/or a rise in taxation to support the operations of the park system. The people operating the park don't have the influence necessary to change the laws in the county, so why bother with this?

    We would be better served by going to the park and passing out literature, or by even pooling some money and sponsoring a free or reduced-cost range day to garner more support for our cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varminter22 View Post
    Don makes good points. Especially:
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?
    I don't know the answer.

    But this line of reasoning makes me wonder if we should boycott Winchell's if they CHOOSE to give a cop a free donut. PRIVATE companies have the RIGHT to give services away to whomever they wish for any reason.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varminter22 View Post
    Don makes good points. Especially:
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?
    From what I see of reports of Metro Police shootings they need all the range time they can get, but that's another story.

    What the financial terms are between Metro and local ranges I'd have no knowledge of, nor do I see the point. If the County has this world class facility available to them, why are they shooting at private facilities? I'm not going to boycott the gas stations that sell gasoline to metro for the cruisers, nor the office supply stores that sell them copy paper. Metro police officers do not make law nor are they responsible for funding of county facilities, that is what the County Commission is for. I'd be extremely happy if the County sold the range to a private party and got out of the business of competing with other local ranges.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoLasVegas View Post
    In my opinion, financial boycotts of government-owned facilities just won't work. Governments don't think like normal business owners. The only likely result of a successful boycott would be the closing of the shooting park, and/or a rise in taxation to support the operations of the park system. The people operating the park don't have the influence necessary to change the laws in the county, so why bother with this?

    We would be better served by going to the park and passing out literature, or by even pooling some money and sponsoring a free or reduced-cost range day to garner more support for our cause.
    What literature would you hand out? What would it say? How would it move the County to change its policies? If it makes sense, I'll get behind it.

    Several of us did spend a day at the range handing out flyers asking people not to support the range and why. Everyone I talked with was very sympathetic with our cause. This was the first time most of them had thought about this aspect. Did we change things that day? No, but we started pushing it in the right direction. No single thing is going to work. It will take many people coming at the problem from many directions.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    I am growing increasingly frustrated with the group. They have talked of action but keep putting it off it seems.
    Isn't this the new NRA-affiliated group which was supposed to be the end-all for our state? The one that I expected to be as useful as an afterburner on a turtle -- and which so many here condemned me for not having faith in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by varminter22 View Post
    Don makes good points. Especially:
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?
    I do. I have sent letters to those 2 ranges along those lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    To sopport the CC shooting park is a slap in the face to the business owner who has to make his bills every month and support his family, Clark County Robs the taxpayer every chance they get, so they do not need to make a profit from the shooting park, they have no problem paying 1.8 million (of your money) to the last family that had a loved one shot. this county is corrupt and I go out of my way to "starve the power"
    And this is the only park that charges you a fee to use it. The organizers of the CCSP knew they had a issue as they were building it, because they made a agreement that other park laws wouldnt apply. Why didnt they stand up at that time and speak out for our rights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    What literature would you hand out? What would it say? How would it move the County to change its policies? If it makes sense, I'll get behind it.

    Several of us did spend a day at the range handing out flyers asking people not to support the range and why. Everyone I talked with was very sympathetic with our cause. This was the first time most of them had thought about this aspect. Did we change things that day? No, but we started pushing it in the right direction. No single thing is going to work. It will take many people coming at the problem from many directions.

    TBG
    It could be something as simple as a letter stating the issues, and a call to action. I imagine what you handed out was very similar, but instead of the call to action being a boycott of the shooting park, maybe the suggested activity should be to contact the county commissioners demanding changes to the offensive ordinances. If a letter like that had email addresses or phone numbers of who to contact and a suggestion of what to say to them it might actually spur some changes.

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    One thing I have been doing is hitting them on the social network sites. I have posted questions about the blue card and parks ban on the county sites. From twitter to facebook. I want them to know as often as I can that people are not using the county range and why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoLasVegas View Post
    It could be something as simple as a letter stating the issues, and a call to action. I imagine what you handed out was very similar, but instead of the call to action being a boycott of the shooting park, maybe the suggested activity should be to contact the county commissioners demanding changes to the offensive ordinances. If a letter like that had email addresses or phone numbers of who to contact and a suggestion of what to say to them it might actually spur some changes.
    I know many of us have. And in my case I was completely blown off by my county rep and my letter was passed to the DAs office for an answer. My rep Larry Brown didnt want to answer or help in any way.

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    I also sent letters to all county reps, with no reply.

    Varminter 22 wrote:

    Originally Posted by varminter22

    Don makes good points. Especially:
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?


    You and Don are the only ones who spin the topic off of gun registration, and onto the individual cops. That is unrelated.
    We never talked about Cops using the range for free and can care less if a range owner gives his services away. Here is the one and only reasion that the range NEEDS to be sold:

    + Clark County is The only County in nevada who registers guns. To willingly support Clark County is not only pleasing to the Brady Campaign, but also supporting tyranny.

    Other reasons include

    Defeats the fair market chances of independant proprieters.
    Puts Government in a position to provide more misinformation (just like the CCW instructors)

    Sorry about the way I did the quote, I willl try to get better

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoLasVegas View Post
    It could be something as simple as a letter stating the issues, and a call to action. I imagine what you handed out was very similar, but instead of the call to action being a boycott of the shooting park, maybe the suggested activity should be to contact the county commissioners demanding changes to the offensive ordinances. If a letter like that had email addresses or phone numbers of who to contact and a suggestion of what to say to them it might actually spur some changes.
    Well intentioned but through experience many of us have found out that our County Officials just don't care what we think or want. Simply communicating with these Jokers does not work. On that I think all of us who have been involved in this issue will agree no matter what side of the boycott debate they fall on. Changes are going to be forced. Change State pre-emption, put it on the ballet, change Commissioners, sue them and or hit them financially. The path ain't easy...

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    I also sent letters to all county reps, with no reply.

    Varminter 22 wrote:

    Originally Posted by varminter22

    Don makes good points. Especially:
    To the best of my knowledge, other local ranges in Clark County allow LEOs to shoot for free (or other "good deals.") Is this correct?

    IF so, then why are you not boycotting all the other shooting ranges that are supportive of Clark County Departments/LEOs?


    You and Don are the only ones who spin the topic off of gun registration, and onto the individual cops. That is unrelated.
    We never talked about Cops using the range for free and can care less if a range owner gives his services away. Here is the one and only reasion that the range NEEDS to be sold:

    + Clark County is The only County in nevada who registers guns. To willingly support Clark County is not only pleasing to the Brady Campaign, but also supporting tyranny.

    Other reasons include

    Defeats the fair market chances of independant proprieters.
    Puts Government in a position to provide more misinformation (just like the CCW instructors)

    Sorry about the way I did the quote, I willl try to get better
    Spin? What spin?

    Is it not relevant? I believe my statement was relevant. If other ranges give preferential (or free) treatment to your county/city law enforcement agencies, why would would support them but not the county shooting range?

    To a large degree the draconian (and, in my opinion, unconstitutional) Clark County handugn registration issue is a statewide issue; and to some degree it is a Clark County issue.

    I have been pushing to abolish Clark County handgun registration for years.

    In my opinion, Clark County handugn registration is clearly in violation of state law (as amended by SB-92 in 2007.)


    In reference to a boycott, I tend to agree with the statement:
    Originally Posted by SoLasVegas In my opinion, financial boycotts of government-owned facilities just won't work. Governments don't think like normal business owners. The only likely result of a successful boycott would be the closing of the shooting park, and/or a rise in taxation to support the operations of the park system. The people operating the park don't have the influence necessary to change the laws in the county, so why bother with this?

    We would be better served by going to the park and passing out literature, or by even pooling some money and sponsoring a free or reduced-cost range day to garner more support for our cause.
    In reference to Steve's comment:
    And this is the only park that charges you a fee to use it. The organizers of the CCSP knew they had a issue as they were building it, because they made a agreement that other park laws wouldnt apply. Why didnt they stand up at that time and speak out for our rights?
    I have no idea why. Perhaps more citizen involvement was/is needed? I certainly thank you for your efforts!

    In reference to David's comments about further reasons to boycott the shooting range:
    Defeats the fair market chances of independant proprieters.
    Puts Government in a position to provide more misinformation (just like the CCW instructors)
    I don't understand. Does this apply equally to family parks & childrens playgrounds? Should we abolish all?
    Same for "position to provide more misinformation." Does the shooting range provide misinformation? If so, lets go after that too.

    In reference to TBG's comment:
    Well intentioned but through experience many of us have found out that our County Officials just don't care what we think or want. Simply communicating with these Jokers does not work. On that I think all of us who have been involved in this issue will agree no matter what side of the boycott debate they fall on. Changes are going to be forced. Change State pre-emption, put it on the ballet, change Commissioners, sue them and or hit them financially. The path ain't easy...
    Who can disagree with that??!!

    It just seems to me that a full blown boycott of the shooting range might not be the best avenue to effect change. After all, where else is best to find shooters of a like mind? Activism at the range? Most certainly. Hand out literature. Talk to shooters. Educate folks. Recruit folks of a like mind. Go after your county commissioners. Bring suit in a court of law. Bring forth legislation.

    But a full blown boycott that could/would result in range closure and/or higher taxes? Seems like "cutting off the nose to spite the face."

    In reference to DVC's comment:
    Isn't this the new NRA-affiliated group which was supposed to be the end-all for our state? The one that I expected to be as useful as an afterburner on a turtle -- and which so many here condemned me for not having faith in?
    Well, the Nevada Firearms Coalition will be what its members want it to be. One is certainly entitled to one's opinion. And one can participate as part of the solution or part of the problem. One thing for sure, the Coalition will fail without substantial membership and member input/help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    ...Puts Government in a position to provide more misinformation (just like the CCW instructors)..
    Awww, c'mon. At least you can say MOST of the CCW instructors...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Awww, c'mon. At least you can say MOST of the CCW instructors...
    Duly noted.... !

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