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Thread: Changing an employers policy?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Changing an employers policy?

    I don't know how to ask this question with out a back story. So here it goes. My wife is a hair stylist at the Lynnhaven mall, and back in November 4 people were robbed and shot at in the parking lot of the mall. http://virginiabeach.wtkr.com/news/n...ll-parking-lot Shortly after that a teen was shot just up the street from where we live. Unfortunately i can't find a new article on that particular crime. Those to incidents shortly after one another and so close to home is what tipped us over the edge to buying some self defense. After making our purchase I starting doing my research concerning carry and what not. That is when I stumbled upon Lynnhaven malls gun policy, and my wife discovered her jobs policy on guns. Not friendly at all. Any person who brings a gun into the work place concealed or not can and most likely will be fired on spot. This is very discouraging given light to recent events. Doing some research it seems that even though we may not hear about it all the time that parking lot around the mall can be quite dangerous at times. So considering that what can my wife and I do to have her company reconsider their policy on guns? Now I know there is no chance of the mall changing their policies, but they can't get my wife fired. So what they don't know wont hurt them. I just figure if the company can change their policy for the safety of their employes who cares what the mall says. I just don't know the best way to go about requesting a review company policy. Any thoughts?
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    There is no magic pill here. We've had this discussion on the forum several times before.

    Leaving aside any criminal trespass implications...

    You have to decide whether losing the job is worth the risk of trying to change the policy.

    As it is now, if nobody knows she carries, as long as that is the case, no harm, no foul. If you start asking questions, well... they are going to start asking questions too, as in, "are you carrying a gun?"

    If you aren't prepared to find a new job, my personal suggestion would be to not bring it up at all.

    TFred

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    is a job worth your life?

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    My wife was at least lucky when they got threats at her job at the time that her bosses gave them permission to carry before anyone even asked. I so wish we had a liability clause that made places liable to anyone that may be injured or killed by being deprived their right to defend themselves.

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There is no magic pill here. We've had this discussion on the forum several times before.

    Leaving aside any criminal trespass implications...

    You have to decide whether losing the job is worth the risk of trying to change the policy.

    As it is now, if nobody knows she carries, as long as that is the case, no harm, no foul. If you start asking questions, well... they are going to start asking questions too, as in, "are you carrying a gun?"

    If you aren't prepared to find a new job, my personal suggestion would be to not bring it up at all.

    TFred
    I can see where you are coming from, a valid point.

    What about an anonymous letter to corporate?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    is a job worth your life?
    This too is a valid point, but right now paying our bills is important to us. Worth her life no, but given TFred's suggestion of what they don't know wont hurt them, as far as I am concerned she can still carry. It would just be nice if she could with out fear of consequence. The unfortunate think is I wish it was as simple as getting a new job, but hair stylist jobs aren't easy to come by. So leaving for a different job isn't that simple as I am sure it is the same for most everybody.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's a tough choice to make, no doubt. If you choose to carry, all I can say is be prepared to fully justify the decision to the boss/owner. If it comes out (meaning she's been found out), there's no sense in being wishy-washy... she's going to be fired anyway... just say you believe your life is worth more than a job, and you hope they will see it that way as well.

    JMHO... and I fully acknowledge it's easy to be the armchair quarterback here.

    TFred

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There is no magic pill here. We've had this discussion on the forum several times before.

    Leaving aside any criminal trespass implications...

    You have to decide whether losing the job is worth the risk of trying to change the policy.

    As it is now, if nobody knows she carries, as long as that is the case, no harm, no foul. If you start asking questions, well... they are going to start asking questions too, as in, "are you carrying a gun?"

    If you aren't prepared to find a new job, my personal suggestion would be to not bring it up at all.

    TFred
    The answer to this quandry is the same as it is for (college) students who think about risking carrying at school, namely, if caught you could be "dismissed for cause". This could disqualify her from collecting unemployment, and make getting another job even tougher.
    Her employer's lease with the mall may have a clause that restricts this as well.

    Sometimes we (on this forum) make so much noise talking to each other about gun rights that we become deaf to the culture at large, which generally holds that guns in the workplace are unsafe. Your wife might have trouble explaining why she violated her former employer's firearm policy to a prospective employer with the same policy and convince him/her that she'd comply now.

    If she does decide to risk carrying at work, she'll need to keep her gun on her person, not in her purse or a drawer or cabinet, unless they can be locked. Leaving it in the car isn't a good idea.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with TFred except that if you/she is that concerned about her job, which is understandable, you may want to consider other alternatives.

    I carry a Taser and a gun and pepper and a knife.
    If the budget allows it, you might consider a Taser. If not, I'd recommend Bear spray, it's hotter and I like the Halon carrier although that can get you in trouble in crowds.

    At any rate...get her something.
    She can leave her gun in the car and just carry the alternate between the shop and the car.

  9. #9
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's a tough choice to make, no doubt. If you choose to carry, all I can say is be prepared to fully justify the decision to the boss/owner. If it comes out (meaning she's been found out), there's no sense in being wishy-washy... she's going to be fired anyway... just say you believe your life is worth more than a job, and you hope they will see it that way as well.

    JMHO... and I fully acknowledge it's easy to be the armchair quarterback here.

    TFred
    Thatís what I was leaning towards. She feels strongly about being able to carry at work, and it would just be nice to know that the company didn't have a policy against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    The answer to this quandry is the same as it is for (college) students who think about risking carrying at school, namely, if caught you could be "dismissed for cause". This could disqualify her from collecting unemployment, and make getting another job even tougher.
    Her employer's lease with the mall may have a clause that restricts this as well.

    Sometimes we (on this forum) make so much noise talking to each other about gun rights that we become deaf to the culture at large, which generally holds that guns in the workplace are unsafe. Your wife might have trouble explaining why she violated her former employer's firearm policy to a prospective employer with the same policy and convince him/her that she'd comply now.

    If she does decide to risk carrying at work, she'll need to keep her gun on her person, not in her purse or a drawer or cabinet, unless they can be locked. Leaving it in the car isn't a good idea.
    This is a very good point. I think that is what it really comes down to. As a gun owner I really find it a inexcusible violation of 2A. As a nonowner, or an anti you just don't think the same way untill you are put in the situation. Sometimes event then it doesn't click. I can reason with a companies reason for not wanting customers to carry, that one is simple, just don't patron the store. The decision to not let employess carry on the other hand is just insane to me. If you allow at a minimum CC atleast the people that work for you have a way of defending themselves. If you don't and they die at the hands of an attacker, I fully believe that blood should fall on the hands of the employer. Espically if that person owns a gun and is denied the right to carry even if the incident takes place in the parking lot. If it could have been prevented and you didn't allow that person the option to have the tools to prevent the situation, that is on you. Some may find that extreme, but IMO it's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I tend to agree with TFred except that if you/she is that concerned about her job, which is understandable, you may want to consider other alternatives.

    I carry a Taser and a gun and pepper and a knife.
    If the budget allows it, you might consider a Taser. If not, I'd recommend Bear spray, it's hotter and I like the Halon carrier although that can get you in trouble in crowds.

    At any rate...get her something.
    She can leave her gun in the car and just carry the alternate between the shop and the car.
    This is an option we have discussed. I am looking at the Kimber Pepper Blaster 2. http://www.pepperblaster.com/ I am just waiting on A&P to get more. I found that they carry it cheaper there then on the website. I do keep an eye out for it when I am at other shops though, just haven't found it yet. I may break down and just order it. I do have a 6" rambo knife she could carry but I think that might cause more disruption than a gun, lol. I haven't really looked at tasers but I can see that as being a viable close encounter option.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  10. #10
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    as someone who is in the same situation as your wife... i chose life. If you conceal it, no one should be able to see it....thus....its not there. Know what i mean? As long as she doesnt brag to her friends or coworkers about it...who would know? (P.S. LCP or similar does not print)

  11. #11
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    how bout, in light of the recent violence, asking the mall, in writing, to reduce their liability by providing escorting security for their parking lot during periods of twilight/darkness! Educational enities have found this a viable resolution. if the mall provides security for the parking lot, i would have your partner call them to escort to their vehicle! everyday!!!!

    now, if they refuse (horrors) to provide escort security or refuse to show up, please see next step..

    now the mall might object to the cost of providing this security, now is when it is calmly pointed out, again in writing, if they eliminated their ban on firearms, at least in the parking lot, they could save the security costs as well as reduce their liability as the citizen would be responsible for their own security.

    keep sending said letters by certified mail until they respond...

    wabbit

    ps: if thoughts center on surreptitiously carrying a firearm, highly recommend a ccw or however it is perceived in your neck of the woods.

    pps: advice provided from the comfort of my recliner...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 01-26-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    There's another point to consider.

    If she were armed and needed to use her weapon to defend herself in the shop, how would she proceed?

    I've discussed this with Staci (my barber) as to how she might use her pistol if needed while on the job (she has a CHP).

    Most hair salons are small, and a perp would likely come in thru the front door. The size of the shop, coupled with her focussing her attention on her client will preclude much (if any) advance warning. Additionally, there will likely be others in the shop between her and the perp (which also means that her path to the front door would be blocked). Given that the perp would likely have his gun out or at the ready, what should/could she do? Her hands might already be full with comb and scissors or other tools. Now, the perp has to watch everybody and she has to only watch him, so there's a slight advantage to her which she might be able to use to assume a defensive posture (put down tools, grasp weapon, etc.). If she presses the advantage from here, she needs to be prepared to fight.

    All of this will happen in seconds (which might seem like long minutes), so mapping out a tactical plan may be useful.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  13. #13
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry My boss is also a sniveling California liberal

    I have made efforts every time the policy manual comes up for review to get the "weapons" section revised and/or removed but this self-righteous panderer "feels" that a safe and non-threatening work environment is created by disarming all employees.

    I refuse to attend company functions because they claim the policy extends to any corporate-sponsored activity.

    I would very much like to see state law revised so that no employer has the authority to disarm its employees AND force them to acquiesce to searches of their personal belongings/vehicles. If they believe that a LAW is being broken then they can do what everyone else does - call the cops and swear out a warrant.

    My favorite part?
    This policy is not intended to create any duty to act by the company which is not otherwise required by law.
    Read as: you are forbidden from defending yourself, but we are also announce our intention to not defend you either.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Well considering the fact that it's a mall, I can't imagine a perp singling out a hair salon. Not that it could never happen, but I would imagine that if anybody were to bring a gun to a mall it wouldn't be just for one store. Rather the mall as a whole. Of course anything is a possibilty. I am all for the concealed option.

    The ol' lady isn't one to brag about carrying. Bragging about carrying is something that we believe should be left to the people who are just trying to be cool. If somebody has a question while we OC then by all means we are willing to entertain. Bragging is out of the question though.

    Over all I think I am starting to lean towards the 'what they don't know won't hurt them'. If all else fails, and she has to use her sidearm in self defense for any reason, and she were to loose her job over it. Fine, F'em . The wife has a station at the house, so between looking for a new job she could always work out of the house.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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