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Thread: Talk to me about carry in a public library...

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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Talk to me about carry in a public library...

    See below...
    Last edited by Polynikes; 01-26-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    El Paso County Sheriff's FAQ seems to be in conflict, or I'm just not reading it right.

    http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres...out022310.pdf?...

    Where am I prohibited to carry concealed?
    Statute 18-12-214
    2) Anywhere prohibited by federal law.
    3 ) …real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school.
    4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
    (a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
    (b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
    (c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
    (5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private
    Goes on to say that...

    Can local government prohibit weapons in public facilities?
    Yes, Statute 18-12-214 / 29-11.7-104
    Furthermore...
    If there is a “no display of firearms sign” on a business or public building, can I still carry concealed?
    Yes, Unless other prohibitions apply.
    I'm assuming that technically a "No Display of Firearms" sign is considered different than a plain old "No Firearms" sign.

    It wouldn't have occurred to me that I couldn't carry in a public library, but all the local branches are posted here.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Pikes Peak Library District's Code of Conduct, per their website, says

    •Concealed weapons that are not legally licensed and open display of weapons are prohibited (Open Display of Weapons Policy and Colo. Rev. Stat. 18-12-105).
    http://library.ppld.org/code-conduct-policy
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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    El Paso County Sheriff's FAQ seems to be in conflict, or I'm just not reading it right.
    -snip-
    I'm assuming that technically a "No Display of Firearms" sign is considered different than a plain old "No Firearms" sign.

    It wouldn't have occurred to me that I couldn't carry in a public library, but all the local branches are posted here.
    Yes, there is a difference. A "No Display" sign, means no open carry. A "No Firearms" sign, means none at all.
    In this case, the library is recognizing that they cannot regulate Concealed, but they do have say over Open.

    If posted in this manner, 'liscensed' CC is fine. OC not so much.
    Same signage exists on the doors of Salida Library.

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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Yes, there is a difference. A "No Display" sign, means no open carry. A "No Firearms" sign, means none at all.
    In this case, the library is recognizing that they cannot regulate Concealed, but they do have say over Open.

    If posted in this manner, 'liscensed' CC is fine. OC not so much.
    Same signage exists on the doors of Salida Library.
    I believe that actual signage on the PPLD branches states that no CC or OC of weapons is permitted, omitting the legally licensed exception that is contained in the actual rules on the website. What about that ability of local government to prohibit weapons in public facilities? Does this apply in this case, since the sign on the door seems to say one thing, but the online Code of Conduct for the library says another.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    I believe that actual signage on the PPLD branches states that no CC or OC of weapons is permitted, omitting the legally licensed exception that is contained in the actual rules on the website. What about that ability of local government to prohibit weapons in public facilities? Does this apply in this case, since the sign on the door seems to say one thing, but the online Code of Conduct for the library says another.
    The library's "code of conduct" does not overrule state law, which provides the few instances in which the lawful carry of a firearm may be prohibited in city buildings.

    Polynikes, you quoted it as: "Concealed weapons that are not legally licensed and open display of weapons are prohibited (Open Display of Weapons Policy and Colo. Rev. Stat. 18-12-105)."

    Colorado's public libraries do NOT have the authority to ban CC on their premises. It does not appear they're trying to ban lawful CC. It does appear as if they're reading only 105, to the exclusion of the rest, and wrongly thinking that OC is somehow illegal.

    Perhaps we need to write letters to the librarians explaining the errors of their ways...
    Last edited by since9; 02-01-2012 at 05:11 AM.
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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The library's "code of conduct" does not overrule state law, which provides the few instances in which the lawful carry of a firearm may be prohibited in city buildings.

    Polynikes, you quoted it as: "Concealed weapons that are not legally licensed and open display of weapons are prohibited (Open Display of Weapons Policy and Colo. Rev. Stat. 18-12-105)."

    Colorado's public libraries do NOT have the authority to ban CC on their premises. It does not appear they're trying to ban lawful CC. It does appear as if they're reading only 105, to the exclusion of the rest, and wrongly thinking that OC is somehow illegal.

    Perhaps we need to write letters to the librarians explaining the errors of their ways...
    Perhaps you missed the:
    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes
    Goes on to say that...
    Can local government prohibit weapons in public facilities?
    Yes, Statute 18-12-214 / 29-11.7-104
    Furthermore...
    So I'll bring that one back up...

    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.

    And since the Pikes Peak Library District IS a taxing District, they actually qualify as a local government and since they have gone and put the signs up... thier "Code of Conduct" has the force of law in this case.

    As I said before, they are not trying to regulate CC. They know they can't. They do have the ability to regulate OC, and they are.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    As I said before, they are not trying to regulate CC. They know they can't. They do have the ability to regulate OC, and they are.
    All the more reason for a full Constitutional Carry amendment to our State Constitution, free from such mindless impediments. Linky.
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    I don't like to open old threads, but this pertains to my search ultimately leading me here. I comprehend this as the PPLD policy bans CC for those whom do not have a permit to carry concealed, which is illegal, and banning OC. I do have a CC permit, so I can carry within the PPLD District. Thank you OC.org.
    I've just been researching this site and I find it very helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnL27 View Post
    I don't like to open old threads, but this pertains to my search ultimately leading me here. I comprehend this as the PPLD policy bans CC for those whom do not have a permit to carry concealed, which is illegal, and banning OC. I do have a CC permit, so I can carry within the PPLD District. Thank you OC.org.
    I've just been researching this site and I find it very helpful.
    Unless the signs have recently changed, they should read: "Open display / carry of firearms and other weapons is prohibited in all PPLD facilities." Thus, the PPLD isn't banning "CC for those whom do not have a permit to carry concealed." CC without a CHP is simply a no-no under state law.

    Rather, the PPLD is simply banning visible firearms and other weapons.

    While their rules are designed to create a more enjoyable experience for their patrons, the problem is that creating "gun-free zones" dramatically increases the likelihood that establishment will be targeted by a lunatic, thereby putting their patrons in danger.

    You'll find more about this, here: Gun Free Zones – Fact vs Fallacy – A Letter to Congress and the President
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    While their rules are designed to create a more enjoyable experience for their patrons, the problem is that creating "gun-free zones" dramatically increases the likelihood that establishment will be targeted by a lunatic, thereby putting their patrons in danger.
    Though I do disagree with this rule, it's hardly creating a "gun free zone." Concealed carry is a lot more common than open carry; they've closed off (unconstitutionally to be sure) the less popular practice but it's quite likely there's a lawfully carried gun or two on premises if the library is at all busy. Certainly if I am there, there will be.

    On the other hand I personally know people who didn't realize they could still carry in the library; they didn't see the "out" that the phrasing of the sign gives them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveInCO View Post
    Though I do disagree with this rule, it's hardly creating a "gun free zone."
    True.

    Concealed carry is a lot more common than open carry; they've closed off (unconstitutionally to be sure) the less popular practice but it's quite likely there's a lawfully carried gun or two on premises if the library is at all busy. Certainly if I am there, there will be.
    The issue is they're creating the appearance of a gun-free zone. How much would you like to bet that when Jared Lee Loughner approached Gabrielle Giffords, he'd assumed that the are would be "sanitized" because she was a member of Congress? Perhaps not, but it may very well have been a factor.

    Similarly the merely lack of a visible firearm presence is often (wrongly) assumed by criminals to mean the lack of firearms altogether. The PPLD signs completely remove all deterrent value of open carry.

    On the other hand I personally know people who didn't realize they could still carry in the library; they didn't see the "out" that the phrasing of the sign gives them.
    That's why we have so much fun on these threads pointing things like this out to others!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    And that is the purpose of this wording.
    I took my kid to an event there, all I did was un tuck my shirt and allow it to cover the weapon.

    I'm seeing alot of state places having signage regarding open display.

    My overwhelming preference is no sign at all. However, from a safety standpoint, I'm at least a little thankful I can still have my weapon. I'm happy that the places don't prohibit it altogether. (I don't think they can per the Act).

    Jon

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    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    I think that when these recent gun laws get repealed they should go after the law that allows governments to regulate OC with signage. It is a direct violation of both constitutions.

    Chance of it happening?
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    link

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    I think that when these recent gun laws get repealed they should go after the law that allows governments to regulate OC with signage. It is a direct violation of both constitutions.

    Chance of it happening?
    http://www.9news.com/story/news/loca...rary/14736991/

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    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    They are going against the policy of not allowing CC.

    I am referring to the state law that gives local governments the ability to regulate OC. Prohibiting OC goes directly against our states Constitution.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I, for one, am sick and tired of government agencies making the very grave mistake of assuming so-called "gun-free" zones are somehow safer for honest, law-abiding citizens than simply allowing them to protect themselves commensurate with our Constitutionally-MANDATED right to do so.

    if you agree, and are sick and tired of liberal ******** infringing on your rights every turn of the clock, please WRITE the members of your local, state, and federal legislatures. MAKE them understand that our rights are NOT up for their "approval," much less an anti-Constitutional dictate spit out by some ******* liberal librarian.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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