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Thread: Cite? Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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    Cite? Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Is there a cite for Innocent until proven guilty, or is the whole concept an urban myth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Is there a cite for Innocent until proven guilty, or is the whole concept an urban myth?
    hey i also want a cite for presenting id to a leo, must u hand it to them or can u just show them...

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    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 01-28-2012 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    yes but what law says i must show the leo id.. and what law says i must give him the id in his hand

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    thats the one I remembered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    thats the one I remembered.
    but it does not say i must present id or my cpl card

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    I dont recall reading anything that says you have to. Could be wrong though. My mind is on other things tonight.

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    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    yes but what law says i must show the leo id.. and what law says i must give him the id in his hand
    When carrying concealed under a CPL, MCL 28.425f
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-28-2012 at 08:05 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    It just says you have to show it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    yes but what law says i must show the leo id.. and what law says i must give him the id in his hand
    Take a look at 28.425f......if you are carrying under the authority of a CPL.

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.

    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:

    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.

    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.

    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.

    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.

    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.

    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It just says you have to show it.


    show
       [shoh] Show IPA verb, showed, shown or showed, show·ing, noun

    verb (used with object)
    1.
    to cause or allow to be seen; exhibit; display.


    dis·play
       [dih-spley] Show IPA

    verb (used with object)
    1.
    to show or exhibit; make visible: to display a sign

    so does this mean i can hold it in my hand and not give it to them.. when they say can i see some id.. can i just show them and tell them to write down my id numbers

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    dr todd, warchild

    im thinking i can just show them.. idk how the leo would like that

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    I think you're right on both points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I think you're right on both points.
    idk if i would be brave enough to try this out.. next time im pulled over..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    dr todd, warchild

    im thinking i can just show them.. idk how the leo would like that
    I can't find it right now, but I seem to recall a case where a CPL holder handed his CPL and license to an officer and was successfully convicted of failure to disclose. I believe Steve Dulan was either involved in the case or was just passing the information on. I'm writing this on my phone now; I'll search for it when I get home to my computer. If anyone else can find it, I'll defer to them.

    Ah, found it

    http://www.ammoland.com/2011/08/01/i...ped-by-police/
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-28-2012 at 09:10 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Is there a cite for Innocent until proven guilty, or is the whole concept an urban myth?
    According to a wiki author, it goes back at least as far as a compendium of Roman law ordered by Emporer Justinian in the 6th century. The idea then being more along the lines of the burden of proof is on the accuser, necessarily implying the accused was presumed innocent.

    Interesting wiki article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocen..._proven_guilty

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    If you are accused (even falsely) of CC in a PFZ like I was, you will get a letter from the board saying your CPL has been suspended long before you go to court. You are punished without trial, due process, or conviction. This goes against the second amendment, as well as the fifth amendment. If you are proven innocent in court, then, after jumping through some hoops, you can have your CPL back.

    Guilty before proven innocent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Is there a cite for Innocent until proven guilty, or is the whole concept an urban myth?
    Although the Constitution of the United States does not cite it explicitly, presumption of innocence is widely held to follow from the 5th, 6th, and 14th amendments. See also Coffin v. United States and In re Winship.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocen..._proven_guilty

    Basic research, man. Basic research.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I get the research part, but why doesnt it play out in the real world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I get the research part, but why doesnt it play out in the real world?
    Because people don't elect politicians who care about Individual Liberty.

    All,

    When voting in the upcoming primary, ask yourself: "does the person I'm voting for actively support individual Liberty?"

    The Constitution is only a piece of paper -- it cannot defend itself. It needs our help.
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-28-2012 at 11:04 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Thats why Im going with Ron Paul. He's the only one I trust with that document.

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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Thats why Im going with Ron Paul. He's the only one I trust with that document.
    i trust only one person... lol


    im writing myself in.
    Last edited by rvd4now; 01-28-2012 at 11:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    i trust only one person... lol


    im writing myself in.

    Trust God

    Vote Ron
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

    When seconds count, the Police are just minutes away !!

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