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Thread: Restoring The Republic

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    Regular Member deniedmyrights's Avatar
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    Restoring The Republic

    The truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

    Restoring The Republic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcttDV1AV4E
    Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deniedmyrights View Post
    The truth is the truth whether we like it or not.
    There are no universal truths known to man. However, we all have our personal truths, which may - or may not - be accepted by anybody else... and they don't have to be accepted by anybody else. They can be uniquely our truth, and still be "right" for the individual believer. Or, it can be a shared truth (mainstream religions are based upon that principle - but that may just be MY personal truth). Pax...
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    There are no universal truths known to man.
    You're joking, right? 1+1=2 is a universal truth. Put H2 and O2 in a chamber under standard day conditions with twice the molality of H2 as O2 and give it a spark, and you WILL witness an explosion. That, too, is a universal truth.

    There are many more universal truths, but one thing does appear to be certain: The more complex the conditions, the less likely is the outcome. For example, one cannot say "if you commit a crime you will go to jail," and thus, that's not a universal truth. However, one can say "there's a good chance you will be caught."

    Another universal truth is that given two otherwise identical and sizable U.S. populations, one armed and one disarmed, the disarmed population will have a higher crime rate.
    Last edited by since9; 02-02-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    You're joking, right? 1+1=2 is a universal truth.
    There are those that would disagree.
    Last edited by Jack House; 02-02-2012 at 05:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    There are those that would disagree.
    Only if the person is stupid, ignorant, or is messing with the details of 1 and 2.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    The truth is true absolutely.

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    Regular Member Fisherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    The truth is true absolutely.
    That's true..... absolutely!

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    so, is it truth, or not for the following; "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal" ?

    Okay, listening to this guy ... wow ... im sorry guys but this guy ... is a nut case, an opinionated nut case. and thats just from 8 minutes into the video ...

    So because a book says that a one world government is a bad thing, that MAKES IT a bad thing, yes? Sigh...
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 02-03-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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    Regular Member deniedmyrights's Avatar
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    This is where we all stand?

    Put your name in the place of Pilate.


    38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The simple truth is that a one world government would be a good thing.....if it were a one world government in Ron Paul's world.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The simple truth is that a one world government would be a good thing.....if it were a one world government in Ron Paul's world.
    It isn't a good idea for us to have one government among the States, having such for the world would be catastrophic no matter who was in charge.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    It isn't a good idea for us to have one government among the States, having such for the world would be catastrophic no matter who was in charge.
    How about United Earth? or the Federation? Those worked well in the books, movies, and shows of star trek.

    Why, even in the Enterprise series, the first episode, Broken Bow part 1, a corn farmer shot a Klingon with a phaser shotgun, which suggests gun rights prevailed into the 23rd century. And that was during United Earth's government under the strict guidance of the Vulcans who can be seen as anti-gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    How about United Earth? or the Federation? Those worked well in the books, movies, and shows of star trek.

    Why, even in the Enterprise series, the first episode, Broken Bow part 1, a corn farmer shot a Klingon with a phaser shotgun, which suggests gun rights prevailed into the 23rd century. And that was during United Earth's government under the strict guidance of the Vulcans who can be seen as anti-gun.

    <3
    No thanks, that is fiction. Even having a federal government has been detrimental to liberty, anything larger will be worse. Why do you want dictators or sheep of another land to have power over your liberty?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Low humor alarm....danger Will Robinson....danger Will Robinson....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    No thanks, that is fiction. Even having a federal government has been detrimental to liberty, anything larger will be worse. Why do you want dictators or sheep of another land to have power over your liberty?
    Because no man is an island. If a city walls itself in from the outside world, it may turn out good for a decade or to, but eventually, things tear apart at the seems, strife, disputes, it becomes a cesspool. That arguement is the same that kept City-states going for hundreds of years in ancient times. But then a string of historic events brought them all together, under one uniform system, which prevailed and worked.

    So, it's a bad thing to even consider letting someone with new ideas, with a different opinion, with a different view, to come in and share those, and help give life to an old idea, right?

    Ya know, just because the star trek franchise is purely an act of fiction, it does bring good morales and a more keen idea into human thinking. When people isolate themselves from another, the group of people, mentally and genetically become stagnant, with little or no growth.

    I'm all for the constitution, but im not extreme in those ideals, i welcome new ideas for a stronger future.

    Look at the European Union, seperately, Euopes economy was stagnating, striffed with war and rivalries between each other, each country had the same line of thought, germans didnt want to be ruled by french, brittish didnt want to be ruled by italians. But each country, and their people worked past prejudice, and all united for the betterment of humanity. Now their laws are not perfect, no law is perfect, our own constitution isnt perfect. But the point is, the PEOPLE are united and stand hand and hand with each other, no matter the region, province, or country, their all europeans, their technology excells beyond that of Russia, China, or the USA. Because they share everything, rewards, and even poverty.

    A united government isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Its the people behind it that can hurt the whole picture. Our federal government isn't a bad thing, its the people BEHIND it, that gives it a bad name. And states' governments are the same.

    If someone argues for non-federalist government, to give powers back to the states, then what is keeping people form saying that power should rest amongst the various counties and cities, and try and dissolve the state government? Then what after that? a return to 13th century fuedal politics? Would you really want to have 50 individual countries? What of land locked states? at the mercy of the states of trade along oceans.

    Christ, all it takes is a little thought into what you stand for, dont just go off saying something is bad without considering the entire picture.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The simple truth is that a one world government would be a good thing.....if it were a one world government in Ron Paul's world.
    Not. Even the best of governments grow corrupt over time. The corruption leads to weakness, before strong governments overtake them. If we had just one government, purging the Earth of the corrupt government would be very difficult if the only option was from the inside out with no help from others.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Because no man is an island. If a city walls itself in from the outside world, it may turn out good for a decade or to, but eventually, things tear apart at the seems, strife, disputes, it becomes a cesspool. That arguement is the same that kept City-states going for hundreds of years in ancient times. But then a string of historic events brought them all together, under one uniform system, which prevailed and worked.

    So, it's a bad thing to even consider letting someone with new ideas, with a different opinion, with a different view, to come in and share those, and help give life to an old idea, right?

    Ya know, just because the star trek franchise is purely an act of fiction, it does bring good morales and a more keen idea into human thinking. When people isolate themselves from another, the group of people, mentally and genetically become stagnant, with little or no growth.

    I'm all for the constitution, but im not extreme in those ideals, i welcome new ideas for a stronger future.

    Look at the European Union, seperately, Euopes economy was stagnating, striffed with war and rivalries between each other, each country had the same line of thought, germans didnt want to be ruled by french, brittish didnt want to be ruled by italians. But each country, and their people worked past prejudice, and all united for the betterment of humanity. Now their laws are not perfect, no law is perfect, our own constitution isnt perfect. But the point is, the PEOPLE are united and stand hand and hand with each other, no matter the region, province, or country, their all europeans, their technology excells beyond that of Russia, China, or the USA. Because they share everything, rewards, and even poverty.

    A united government isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Its the people behind it that can hurt the whole picture. Our federal government isn't a bad thing, its the people BEHIND it, that gives it a bad name. And states' governments are the same.

    If someone argues for non-federalist government, to give powers back to the states, then what is keeping people form saying that power should rest amongst the various counties and cities, and try and dissolve the state government? Then what after that? a return to 13th century fuedal politics? Would you really want to have 50 individual countries? What of land locked states? at the mercy of the states of trade along oceans.

    Christ, all it takes is a little thought into what you stand for, dont just go off saying something is bad without considering the entire picture.
    I consider everything. I reject communism and socialism as I won't share in poverty, if it is from my own fault then it is my burden, if someone else is in poverty they should be productive and not be a parasite. The main problem with a single government is the same, but larger, problem we have with the federal government, it is hard to escape. With one world government there is no way to vote with ones feet against oppressive laws; or anything else. There is no economic, political or other lifeboat for when corruption brings the system down. A lack of competition with governments is as bad as a lack of competition in any other human endeavor. It would be like having the UAW in charge, expect massive unemployment.

    Don't assume because I don't want an all powerful national or world government that I want the states to be completely individual. I like the constitutional system the founders set up with a federal republic, not a national top down democracy. Under the former the states could be different yet had just the right economic and political ties. Under the latter we have almost lost the ability to vote with our feet and every other right. This national system isn't working, therefore it won't work when made larger.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    You're joking, right? 1+1=2 is a universal truth. Put H2 and O2 in a chamber under standard day conditions with twice the molality of H2 as O2 and give it a spark, and you WILL witness an explosion. That, too, is a universal truth.

    There are many more universal truths, but one thing does appear to be certain: The more complex the conditions, the less likely is the outcome. For example, one cannot say "if you commit a crime you will go to jail," and thus, that's not a universal truth. However, one can say "there's a good chance you will be caught."

    Another universal truth is that given two otherwise identical and sizable U.S. populations, one armed and one disarmed, the disarmed population will have a higher crime rate.
    There are those propositions which are generally and widely accepted as being true, but given time they may be disproven. Or perhaps they, like Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", are accepted as truth only because they cannot (yet) be disproven.

    As for your 1+1 example... 1+1 does not always equal 2. What most people assume to be self-evident rules of arithmetic -- valid at all times and for all purposes -- actually depend on what we define a number to be. In Boolean algebra 1+1=0 (carry the 1). Our only reference for the measurement or "truth" of anything in the universe is the value which we assign to it. A "statute mile" consists of 5,280 feet only because that is the value we have given to it. The freezing point of fresh water at sea level is 32F/0C - only because Daniel Fahrenheit gave it that value in the early-18th century, and we accept it as such. There is no universality in measurement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    There are those propositions which are generally and widely accepted as being true, but given time they may be disproven. Or perhaps they, like Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", are accepted as truth only because they cannot (yet) be disproven.

    As for your 1+1 example... 1+1 does not always equal 2. What most people assume to be self-evident rules of arithmetic -- valid at all times and for all purposes -- actually depend on what we define a number to be. In Boolean algebra 1+1=0 (carry the 1). Our only reference for the measurement or "truth" of anything in the universe is the value which we assign to it. A "statute mile" consists of 5,280 feet only because that is the value we have given to it. The freezing point of fresh water at sea level is 32F/0C - only because Daniel Fahrenheit gave it that value in the early-18th century, and we accept it as such. There is no universality in measurement.

    Don't Bogart that doobie! Pax...
    Don't mean to be picky, but 1+1=1 in Boolean... the (+)plus sign is the "or" operator.

    As it pertains to "truth"... REALITY is truth. It is our perception of reality that is suspect.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Don't mean to be picky, but 1+1=1 in Boolean... the (+)plus sign is the "or" operator.

    As it pertains to "truth"... REALITY is truth. It is our perception of reality that is suspect.
    You're absolutely right, georg! I don't know what I was thinking... other than 1+1 didn't equal 2 in the 19th century world of George Boole, nor does it today in the 21st century world of computers.

    My example was a zero (false). Well, maybe not a true 'false', but it was certainly inaccurate/erroneous. I hit the right target, just missed the bullseye!

    And, yes, we all have our own sense of what is 'real' as well. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 02-04-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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    Yet, adding 1 and 1 in base 2 still equals an amount equivalent to the decimal number "2". It is just notated as "10" So, really, 1 plus(added) 1 still does equal '2'.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    The only way 1+1=3, regardless of the base, is for large values of 1.

    1.0 + 1.0 = 2, always. There is no different way of adding or some bs like that.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    The only way 1+1=3, regardless of the base, is for large values of 1.

    1.0 + 1.0 = 2, always. There is no different way of adding or some bs like that.
    Yep.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    There are those propositions which are generally and widely accepted as being true, but given time they may be disproven. Or perhaps they, like Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", are accepted as truth only because they cannot (yet) be disproven.

    As for your 1+1 example... 1+1 does not always equal 2. What most people assume to be self-evident rules of arithmetic -- valid at all times and for all purposes -- actually depend on what we define a number to be. In Boolean algebra 1+1=0 (carry the 1). Our only reference for the measurement or "truth" of anything in the universe is the value which we assign to it. A "statute mile" consists of 5,280 feet only because that is the value we have given to it. The freezing point of fresh water at sea level is 32F/0C - only because Daniel Fahrenheit gave it that value in the early-18th century, and we accept it as such. There is no universality in measurement.

    Don't Bogart that doobie! Pax...
    Case in point.

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    Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here. Just some disillusioned commies and Paulites.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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