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Thread: Is it legal to CC at South Florida Fairgrounds in West Palm Beach?

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    Is it legal to CC at South Florida Fairgrounds in West Palm Beach?

    Is it legal to CC at the fairgrounds in West Palm Beach. There was a shooting at the Fair this past weekend and in the news article it said that weapons were prohibited.
    I thought the fairgrounds were public property.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996twint View Post
    Is it legal to CC at the fairgrounds in West Palm Beach. There was a shooting at the Fair this past weekend and in the news article it said that weapons were prohibited.
    I thought the fairgrounds were public property.
    They are. It is legal to carry there regardless of what they think.
    Rich
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    Another question on the fairgrounds. When they have the gun show there, can they make you secure your firearm before entering?
    I emailed the Fair public relations director and informed him that his quote in the Palm Beach Post is incorrect.

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/cr...h-2137789.html
    Last edited by 996twint; 01-31-2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Added Link

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    Rich and a few others are far better at answering these than I, but, I can summarize to some degree.

    The way I understand things, we all know that a private property owner/business can say "no firearms". We may not like it. It may make our heads hurt, but, that's life, we deal with it.

    Now, we all also should know that State preemption makes it illegal for any county or city government/organization to govern firearms. Period. Only the State of Florida can prohibit you from carrying your firearm somewhere.

    Now, what is not as cut and dry is the question, does that same preemption apply to a private tenant of county/city owned property? ( i.e. the private company running the gun show, renting the city/county owned property) In other words, can the owner of the property (the county/city) give their tenant (the company leasing the fairgrounds to run the gun show) a right they do not have themselves (govern firearms)?

    From what I understand, that question hasn't been answered in court yet. Meaning, it's kimd of open to speculation and a whole lot of forum discussions like this. LOL

    I do know that Rich and the folks over at Florida Carry are working hard to find the answer, if it's out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSeller View Post
    Rich and a few others are far better at answering these than I, but, I can summarize to some degree.

    The way I understand things, we all know that a private property owner/business can say "no firearms". We may not like it. It may make our heads hurt, but, that's life, we deal with it.

    Now, we all also should know that State preemption makes it illegal for any county or city government/organization to govern firearms. Period. Only the State of Florida can prohibit you from carrying your firearm somewhere.

    Now, what is not as cut and dry is the question, does that same preemption apply to a private tenant of county/city owned property? ( i.e. the private company running the gun show, renting the city/county owned property) In other words, can the owner of the property (the county/city) give their tenant (the company leasing the fairgrounds to run the gun show) a right they do not have themselves (govern firearms)?

    From what I understand, that question hasn't been answered in court yet. Meaning, it's kimd of open to speculation and a whole lot of forum discussions like this. LOL

    I do know that Rich and the folks over at Florida Carry are working hard to find the answer, if it's out there.
    Very good JeepSeller! That indeed is the issue. Florida Carry has been exploring this issue for several months, and have found no case law in modern juris prudence on point. In fact, we have people exploring English Common Law to find precedent there as well.

    The question will likely rise to a court challenge or some legislative action (which will probably end up in court as well). There are several factors to consider.

    1. Does a private lessee of public property have the right to impose a restriction which the lessor does not have? We believe not. A parallel to this is would a tenant (not residential) be legally allowed to forbid an activity that his landlord has not forbidden? Take for example, a strip mall owned by a development company. Can a store owner designate and enforce parking spaces for his store without permission of the landlord?

    2. Does the characteristics of the lease or contract come into play? In other words, if the lessee is "managing" the property on behalf of the lessor (government), are they then considered to be "state actors", subject to the same restrictions as the lessor? What if it's a short term lease, such as when a radio station sponsors a concert in a public park, charges admission, and has their own private security enforcing a firearms ban during the term of the lease? This happened to me in Fort Myers. The police lieutenant I spoke to said that the city considered the park to be "private property" for the duration of the concert.

    3. And finally, with regard to gun shows, do we really want to attack that right now? It's irksome to me, but given there are still local governments with unlawful ordinances out there, Florida Carry needs to concentrate limited resources where they will do most good.

    But please, continue with the discussion. I'd like to hear all opinions, but preferably those which can be backed up by case law or statute.
    Rich
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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996twint View Post
    Another question on the fairgrounds. When they have the gun show there, can they make you secure your firearm before entering?
    I emailed the Fair public relations director and informed him that his quote in the Palm Beach Post is incorrect.

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/cr...h-2137789.html
    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I would suggest that right after a shooting isn't the best time to address this issue as emotions run high and can lead to a very negative reaction.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
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    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I would suggest that right after a shooting isn't the best time to address this issue as emotions run high and can lead to a very negative reaction.
    I agree.

    We can all stand around, beat our chest, and point to the laws all we like. It takes people to change the way those laws are followed. Even when it requires legal action to push that change.

    We all know it's an emotional issue regardless. On both sides. Right after a publicly negative event, those emotions run high and strong...making the fight that much more difficult.

    The general population's attention span is about that of a beagle....patience will pay off vs. beating your head against the wall when fresh memories of such an event have more people pushing against that wall. Wait a bit, let something else shiny come along to divert their attention. LOL

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    I am curious as to how it will go when I try to carry into the Collier County fair

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by im4Christ92 View Post
    I am curious as to how it will go when I try to carry into the Collier County fair

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
    Basically, the way I see it, if they don't have metal detectors....keep it concealed and enjoy your evening.

    If they do have metal detectors, you'll face a choice.

    You can:
    1. Go back to your car, disarm, leave firearm in the car, return to fair a few ounces lighter.
    2. Go through the metal detectors and, most likely, if you have the brass (and the bankroll), become the much needed test case for this issue.
    3. Go home with your firearm and spend that money somewhere else.

    Choose wisely. LOL

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by im4Christ92 View Post
    I am curious as to how it will go when I try to carry into the Collier County fair

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    If I've identified the property correctly (Immokallee Rd. about 10 miles east of I-75, on right, after the road bends to the north), it is county property. The fair association is governed under 616.07 Florida Statutes. You should be allowed to carry. If you do find any "no firearms" signs (take picture if possible), get stopped at the entrance, or anything like that, comply with all instructions, take names/departments, note time/date, try to remember what is said, and send me an e-mail with all pertinent data to rich@floridacarry.org.
    Last edited by Rich7553; 02-03-2012 at 05:51 PM.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

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    Will do. Thanks Rich.

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